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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 7252787">I think, in this day and age that assuming a creature must be stronger because it is more muscular in outward appearance promotes a dangerous ideology, and undermines the that players are exceptions not common stock.  Would it?  There's nothing stopping a Gnome from having a 20 STR in 5E than there is stopping a human from having an 8 STR.  Your average hobbit may be prone to desiring to be quick and clever while your average orc may value strength and heartiness, but players are not "average" members of their species.  They're that one hobbit who decided he really liked hitting things.  There's that one orc who skipped combat training to gaze at the stars.  They're that one human who happens to have the exact same score in every stat.  NPCs can have whatever stats you want to give them.  Want all your elves to be a little more dexterous?  Give them all a +2 to Dex when making them.  Want your orcs to be burly meatheads?  Give them a +2 Str AND Con!But the players are exceptions.  That's why they're the ones we're telling a story about.  Not Joe Average from Commonplace who is more or less like Everybody Else(TM).  Like I said, the fluff is up to the DM.  And I gave two examples of how "being exposed to magical stuff" could be fluffed in:A: the race has a natural desire to seek out the magical.or;B: the race is institutionally exposed to the magical.  or, and I just thought of this;C: a mix of both: elves are required to demonstrate at least a minimal (one cantrip) magical proficiency to be considered "adults".  or;D: The elven patron gods have blessed the elves with natural magical affinity, causing all of them to "discover" the ability to cast a cantrip at some point in life.There, now don't tell me I'm imposing on your campaign.  The ability is already there.  No imposition has been made by the removal of stat bonuses.  I've just placed the imposition on culture instead of biology.  Frankly, I find it easier to justify that mass numbers of Elves share cultural traits than mass numbers of Elves share biological traits.  Stat bonuses pigeon-hole elves into always being the "quick and dexterous race", and leave no room for the chunky short elf, or the beefy brawler elf.  I didn't add anything.  I removed something that forced elves into even more of a hole than they already were.  The free cantrip?  It's right there.  In the RAW.  I did nothing to it other than suggest that the DM rely on interesting aspects of a races culture instead of that race's physical makeup.  The idea that all elves are somehow extra skinny and extra dexterous flies in the face of player exceptionalism.  Tough.  That means they need more meddling.  Argument to Tradition is a logical fallacy.  If your argument can be summed up with "It's always been this way, don't rock the boat." you're missing my entire point and not even making an argument.  I want to rock the boat.Isn't the whole concern with racial essentialism that certain races ought to have certain stats in order to better support their lore?  So, removing the stats would naturally move one away from racial essentialism.  I mean, there's a reason that when I want to play dex-heavy classes I play elves.  I'm not arguing that certain races shouldn't be entirely disinclined towards certain things over others.  That's a perfectly normal part of culture and society to press people into a direction that makes them conform to society.  If that society has chosen militarism, then it's people are going to be better at fighting and tactics.  If that society has chosen art and culture, then it's people, even the untrained ones will have a natural inclination towards art and culture because they're surrounded by it 24/7 until they start adventuring.  If people around you are always talking about what makes a good painting, you're going to pick up on that, even if you have no interest in painting.  It doesn't mean you're smarter, or a better painter, you've just got a more trained eye for painting.All races are going to gravitate towards certain classes, even with the removal of stats.  The only way you could not do so is to make the race nothing but flavor, and have a "background" selection that provides generic non-racial features.  Now I don't think we need to go that far.  But I think taking away mechanical bonuses from races entirely, or at least attaching them to class and background would move the race away from being the expected choice for any given class.Like, lets say Elves get 1 Cantrip.The background: Criminal gives +1 Dex, to represent all the time you've spend running and evading the law.and the class Monk gives +2 Wisdom, to represent all the time you've spent in meditation, reflecting on the decisions you've made in life.And really I think that's how it should be handled.</blockquote>

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