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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7255636" data-attributes="member: 996">'Just better' than what?&nbsp; It's relative.&nbsp; A +1 from an ASI is something every class gets at 4th level.&nbsp; You can put it different places, or trade it in for a feat, but you're not 'just better' than the next guy who puts his ASI in his primary stat.&nbsp; You're both better than the monsters you were fighting last, but that's the curve.&nbsp; Magic items put you ahead of that curve.&nbsp;More plausibly, an indication that it is not balanced around the feats, thus making feats DM-opt-in optional.&nbsp;I agree that starting at +2 is just fine.&nbsp; IMHO, starting at +3 is /expected/, but +2 is adequate.&nbsp; Both will get you to 20 before the typical AP finishes around 15th level.&nbsp;Does it really need to be?&nbsp; &nbsp;It's not hard to confirm that, just look at the monsters:&nbsp;&nbsp; Do their attacks scale from a +4 at CR 1 to a +8 at CR 20?&nbsp; Do the saves they force scale from DC 12 to DC 16?I agree that there is nothing wrong with meandering to 20.&nbsp; There's also nothing dreadfully wrong with being a bit behind the assumed curve - never has been, in any edition - heck, in the early game, you could be 'behind,' quite literally, due to different exp awards.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7255636, member: 996"] 'Just better' than what? It's relative. A +1 from an ASI is something every class gets at 4th level. You can put it different places, or trade it in for a feat, but you're not 'just better' than the next guy who puts his ASI in his primary stat. You're both better than the monsters you were fighting last, but that's the curve. Magic items put you ahead of that curve. More plausibly, an indication that it is not balanced around the feats, thus making feats DM-opt-in optional. I agree that starting at +2 is just fine. IMHO, starting at +3 is /expected/, but +2 is adequate. Both will get you to 20 before the typical AP finishes around 15th level. Does it really need to be? It's not hard to confirm that, just look at the monsters: Do their attacks scale from a +4 at CR 1 to a +8 at CR 20? Do the saves they force scale from DC 12 to DC 16? I agree that there is nothing wrong with meandering to 20. There's also nothing dreadfully wrong with being a bit behind the assumed curve - never has been, in any edition - heck, in the early game, you could be 'behind,' quite literally, due to different exp awards. [/QUOTE]

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