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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GreenTengu" data-source="post: 7256483" data-attributes="member: 6777454">I know we are 10 pages deep, so its probably way too late to comment on the original premise, but....I feel like 5E did hit on a sort of racial design that works. Certain benefits become entirely or effectively nullified if you are a class that particularly benefits from the other aspects of the race. However, these weren't really well implemented post the PHB because it seems the later designers were just too dumb to comprehend the actual game effect these abilities have.Martial weapon proficiencies? Armor proficiencies? Nice concept to tack onto a warrior race, but of absolutely no benefit if you take a class that is already a melee combatant-- you either would get those proficiencies from class, or at least the class offers something so that those proficiencies are absolutely meaningless.Ditto with natural armor or natural weapons which are nice ways to make your race seem more beastial or monstrous. But, again, if you are a melee class then either these are going to be inferior to using your class weapon and armor lay out or, at least, not better.However, if you don't choose one of those melee damage-dealing, armor wearing classes-- if you are a class that doesn't benefit so much from the attribute bonuses, then these abilities are actually meaningful and give the race something when taking those classes that it effectively wouldn't have otherwise-- a bonus for choosing a seemingly unfavored class.Or if everything about the race says "rogue" and you give them a lesser version of the Rogue class's first level ability to dodge/hide more easily-- well, that is functionally nullified if you take the Rogue class, but if you take any other class it is like you dipped one toe into that Rogue class. And probably the same can be done for a number of early level abilities across classes.For abilities that have a lessened effect?+1 hit point per a level means a LOT more to someone who has a D4 hit die than someone who has a d10 or d12-- even if the later is more likely to lose hit points.An extra cantrip or early level spells lots give a much more significant bonus to a class that absolutely wouldn't have magic at all than they mean to a class that already gets more than it is likely to really need.And then there are a few abilities that are pretty universally good.Saves or damage reduction against things that are likely to target your character are always good benefits because no one really avoids damage entirely in the game.The Halfling's ability to reroll 1s is good regardless of your class with only more benefit for those that roll more often.But, even within the PHB not everything was done correctly.The Half-Orc's Savage Attacks puts in an unnecessary restriction that screws up the whole thing. The race already grants a strength bonus and has an ability to avoid getting knocked out, which is most useful for the tank. So given that everything else is already forcing you towards playing a Fighter, Paladin or Barbarian and giving you basically no benefit for being anything else.... it is just utterly stupid game design that Savage Attacks should be limited to melee weapon attack. Simply strike that unnecessary restriction and there is actually a benefit to be gained for playing them with other classes, plenty enough of which make more than enough sense. Instead of this mentality of "I am playing against type, so I deserve to suck and be punished for it", you could actually have a decently functional Half-Orc Monk or Half-Orc Warlock.And, sure, there are those who will argue that "hey, taking a -1 on all your rolls throughout the whole game compared to if you took the 'right' class or effectively 'buying' a bunch of abilities that lay on your sheet never to be used because of your race/class combination choice doesn't make it 'unviable'"... but, well... I am skeptical  they have even tried. I had too many negative experiences in 3/3.5 edition where my standardly made or unusual character had trouble making an attack roll against a single target while the min/maxed loophole twink characters that dominate the conversation as well take out every standard encounter in the first round... and anything thrown out to challenge them would be entirely untouchable to my abilities and kill me in one or two hits...So stop the whole <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> about the a handful of +1s to attack rolls and ac not mattering one bit. It sure as hell matters.</blockquote>

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