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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Votan" data-source="post: 3269409" data-attributes="member: 18680">Well, if you want to argue core-only then that is fine.Consider:Elves-> +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution. -> Elf base land speed is 30 feet. -> Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. -> Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. -> Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. -> +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. -> Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass elf’s wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. Humans-> Human base land speed is 30 feet. -> 1 extra feat at 1st level. -> 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level. -> Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count. So we are comparing 1 feat, an effective bonus of +2 INT in terms of skills, and any favored class to some small miscellaneous bonuses: +2 on a small subset of saves, +2 to three rogue skills, low light vision and proficiency with 4 martial weapons.  The human has an extra maxxed out skill, any feat (including the ability to enter prestige classes faster) and a much easier ability to multi-class.  The elf is clearly disadvantaged with any martial class (where a major racial feature is simply removed with no compensation) and the con penalty is never a positive thing.  Note that we are talking PHB elves -- we can have a separate discussion that is much more interesting about the MM elven subraces.  I am going to focus in on the cases where these things help the most.  I think that we can rule out all 4 martial classes (Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin), Bard (3 of 4 martial weapons on list and needs skill points badly), Monk (skill points critical) and classes were CON is critical (Druid).  I think the three best choices are:Wizard (or Sorcerer) The canonical elf.  Basically the elf loses out on a skill (probably another knowledge skill) and a feat to be able to fire a bow and then move.  Nice at low levels; rapidly irrelevant at medium and high levels.  Wizards can always use another feat to increase options even with the bonus class feats.  The skill bonuses, not bad, do little for a class that isn't focused on these options.  It is worth noting that a Human Wizard can still be better at all 3 using bonus skill points by medium levels.  The con penalty really makes the d4 hit points hurt.  Rogue This class has some of the elven weapon proficiencies already -- you are adding the longbow and the longsword.  This is a minor benefit over options that already exist leading to +1 point of damage on attacks for a class that focuses on sneak attack damage.  They get +2 on three skills (the human can get +2 on 2 of them with his bonus feat).  The ability to detect secret doors is nice but careful work can replicate this.  The human gets another maxxed out skill resulting in more attribute points (lower INT) or more skills (alwasy important for a rogue).  They get an extra feat for a feat starved class.  Rogue is a poor single class choice -- adding two levels of another class can help a lot.  The ability to buy a 14 CON (assuming point buy) makes wandering into melee to flank a little less scary.  I see many more human rogues than elf.  Cleric The best choice, in my opinion.  All 4 weapons proficiencies help and the low light vision isn't bad.  Skill bonuses syngerize with Find Traps.  CON isn't a massive penalty.  Still, the feat starved cleric can use another feat for sure and the 2+INT skill points (with a good list) make the extra skill point tempting.  What I am noticing is that a credible argument can be made that an elf of equal level is weaker than a human.  You might value elements differently and thus, for example, argue that the elf rogue > human rogue.  But I am really interested to see how you could argue that the elf needs to be a level lower than the human for this to make sense.  Honestly, the best argument for this (at any level) is a level 1 wizard or sorcerer (where bow >> crossbow).  But a human can burn a feat to duplicate this and still have better CON (in either point buy or rolled) and more skill points (which will matter a lot in the long run).  I don't mind people who argue human = elf; I find it a weak comparison in practice but it isn't like it is so bad nobody will ever play an elf.  But to argue that an elf is +1 LA is pretty harsh . . .</blockquote>

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