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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8050577" data-attributes="member: 29398">Which merely tells me that whatever penalties were put in to counterbalance that creature's bonuses aren't harsh enough.True, but one would like to think those scenarios and opponents are designed for an average party rather than a party optimized to the max.  A good clue here is to look at the pre-generated characters the adventure gives you (if any), as in theory that's the level of optimization the designers have written the adventure to suit.If one takes an MMORPG-like approach.If, however, players step away from that approach, puts character first with only the most basic nods toward optimizing (e.g. put your best stat in your class' prime req.) and lets the chips fall where they may then there's much less (if any) sense of "hurting the table".Well, IMO Hobgoblins shouldn't even be PC-playable, but that's another issue entirely.That said, if they are to be PCs I personally have no problem whatsoever with forcing them into a little tiny niche as doing so will serve to discourage people from playing them!  The only caveat is that if a player intentionally wants to play one it needs to be made clear that either they fall into the niche or they're setting themselves up for a real challenge (and some players groove on the challenge of playing against type, as the underdog).That's MMORPG thinking again, in two ways.First, even if death doesn't end up happening most players IMO shouldn't have any real expectations of their first character or three lasting any great length of time, be said character good, bad or indifferent in terms of optimization.Second, that the loss of a single character could that easily lead to the wipeout of the whole party indicates an ongoing threat level far higher than D&D usually presents, and-or a mathematical model that's far too fine-tuned to be of any real use to anyone.  Most combats as designed are supposed to be fairly easily winnable by an average group of PCs of the expected level even if they roll like crap for a while; and only very rarely is a combat presented where the PCs are by design supposed to run away or sue for parley instead of fight. (and they usually find a way to win the battle anyway!)If a party of 5 go into a combat and one PC dies along with all the foes, the party still wins.</blockquote>

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