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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 9447305" data-attributes="member: 20323">I wanted to focus on what you're saying about differentiating proficient saves from ability scores (in regards to monsters). I'm trying to think of actual examples where using saves-as-ability-mods would lead to glaring discrepancy between the monster's mechanics and our story expectations of it.For examples, if we take a cambion... Str 18 (+4), Dex 18 (+4), Con 16 (+3), Int 14 (+2), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 16 (+3)... it has these saves STR +7, CON +6, INT +5, CHA +6. It already has these skills... Deception +6, Intimidation +6, Perception +4, Stealth +7... so the only change in terms of practical implication here (i.e. in terms of checks GMs actually make for monsters) would be the cambion with saves-as-ability-mods would effectively have Athletics proficiency for resisting grapples. That seems pretty appropriate.Another example, if we look at a beholder... Str 10, Dex 14 (+2), Con 18 (+4), Int 17 (+3), Wis 15 (+2), Cha 17 (+3)... it has the following saves... INT +8, WIS +7, CHA +8... and its only skill proficiency/expertise is Perception +12. So using saves-as-ability-mods for a beholder effectively gives it Insight and Deception proficiency. I guess that will depend on the way the GM is using the beholder, as a thieves' guildmaster like Xanathar, those would make sense.I guess I'm just not finding an example that really convinces me the differentiation is all that worthwhile for monsters.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 9447305, member: 20323"] I wanted to focus on what you're saying about differentiating proficient saves from ability scores (in regards to monsters). I'm trying to think of actual examples where using saves-as-ability-mods would lead to glaring discrepancy between the monster's mechanics and our story expectations of it. For examples, if we take a cambion... [B]Str 18 (+4), Dex 18 (+4), Con 16 (+3), Int 14 (+2), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 16 (+3)[/B]... it has these saves [B]STR +7, CON +6, INT +5, CHA +6[/B]. It already has these skills...[B] Deception +6, Intimidation +6, Perception +4, Stealth +7[/B]... so the only change in terms of practical implication here (i.e. in terms of checks GMs actually make for monsters) would be the cambion with saves-as-ability-mods would effectively have Athletics proficiency for resisting grapples. That seems pretty appropriate. Another example, if we look at a beholder... [B]Str 10, Dex 14 (+2), Con 18 (+4), Int 17 (+3), Wis 15 (+2), Cha 17 (+3)[/B]... it has the following saves... [B]INT +8, WIS +7, CHA +8[/B]... and its only skill proficiency/expertise is [B]Perception +12[/B]. So using saves-as-ability-mods for a beholder effectively gives it Insight and Deception proficiency. I guess that will depend on the way the GM is using the beholder, as a thieves' guildmaster like Xanathar, those would make sense. I guess I'm just not finding an example that really convinces me the differentiation is all that worthwhile for monsters. [/QUOTE]

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