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Raiders of the Serpent Sea - Third Party 5E Review
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<blockquote data-quote="TheSword" data-source="post: 9208995" data-attributes="member: 6879661"><p>If Hel doesn't regain her true self then yes you need to add another clue to the Island of Broken Things assuming they didn't go there of their own accord. There are several NPCs in the Underworld that could do this, but the DM would definitely need to improvise this. How objectional you find this is a matter of taste I guess.</p><p></p><p>Are you honestly saying if the PCs failed the check and then decided to give the girl a sparkling bracelet, or a doll, or used <em>calm emotions</em> or charm magic you would insist on not allowing them the positive outcome because a DC 13 Charisma check wasn't passed.</p><p></p><p>It is conditional. Look at the piece you cropped out...</p><p></p><p>"If the Infestation After Death event (see Introduction) has run, and the heroes did not notice the witchbeetles <strong>enter their belongings, then mere hours after they enter the realm, they infest the Underworld with witchbeetles</strong>."</p><p></p><p>Later on at the bridge you get...</p><p></p><p>"<strong>If the heroes brought witchbeetles into the realm (see earlier)</strong>, then a successful DC 21 Wisdom (Perception) check noti<strong>ces the presence of a few witchbeetles</strong> among the golden beetles."</p><p></p><p>At Regulus you get...</p><p></p><p>"<strong>If the party has noticed witchbeetles</strong> elsewhere in the Underworld and succeed on a DC 16 Intelligence (Investigation) check now they see three of them crawling on Regulus’s cloak. If confronted he merely shrugs and says, “They are what they are, and she sees only what I say.”</p><p></p><p>There is no inconsistency here. It is really clear that the PCs bring the Witchbeetles in, and if you bring them in and notice that, then they are also spotted on Regulus. If you think the checks are too difficult then fair enough. But to say that it isn't explained is just wrong.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Most if not all published adventures have some fixed points. Not least a dungeon with an entrance and steps down to the next level. So I find your suggestion that its not fun, a bit of a stretch. I am really surprised that you find them speaking to The Clipper so objectional. Its an encounter with multiple resolution methods. There are good reasons for the PCs to go there - its the first structure in the Underworld they see and there is a minor hook from scared souls being stopped from continuing their journey. . At least the writers have given some thought to what would happen if they ignore it. Had they not, not doubt the criticism would have been "why wouldn't my PCs just swim the river" or "why wouldn't my PC just climb over the bridge" because PCs are like that.</p><p></p><p>The section of the Underworld is clearly inspired by the H<em>elvegr - </em>the Road/Way to Hel taken from the Gesta Danorum (History of the Danes).</p><p></p><p><strong>"Then they came to a raging torrent, flowing with weapons. Crossing by a bridge, they came upon armies of fallen warriors, locked in eternal battle. As they pressed forward, a wall stood in their way; they could go no further, but the woman tore off the head of a cock, which she happened to have with her, and flung it over the wall. Immediately the cock came to life and crowed."</strong></p><p></p><p>Considering the fact that in between these elements the party can move in and around freely the cool factor of having the Underworld actually relate to the norse spiritual journey of the dead outweighs the minor offence caused by one encounter happening after another.</p><p></p><p>As for the dragon, fair play, it's in-world reason for being there isn't given. I personally will have it bound by Hel to ensure souls cross the bridge and are assessed. Maybe it is clumsy as written. Unplayable? Nah.</p><p></p><p>Yes the party shouldn't stay and try and kill every wicked person in the Underworld. Yes that is the correct approach its not a sensible choice. Did you think there would just be a dozen or so wicked souls? Its an active prison fortress. Standing and fighting is a terrible choice - and not one that should be rewarded by allowing the PCs to 'clear' the area and explore at their leisure. If they look in the door ways they see four dozen guards rising from the beds putting on armour and grabbing weapons with noise and clamour from the many other doors.</p><p></p><p>Of course this is only an issue if your PCs decide to open confrontation in the opening encounter or try to assault the guards. None of the section quotes happens if the PCs go to the garden and help free the prisoners.</p><p></p><p>They are still entitled to fight and If they choose open combat then they can either progress forward to the garden which can be seen from the hallway where the conflict would occur or the fall back and leave the place in which case they are free to do that as the prisoners can't leave. Its a flaw in player perception that they believe they should be able to 'clear' everything.</p><p></p><p>As DM you inform the players perception of the world. Its pretty clear from the initial encounters that the dead are once living souls. You even see an old lady climb out of the ground and begin her journey. You get to interact with some unfortunate souls poisoned by their village well water. You get a patrol sent by Hollow Hel to keep the peace and warn the PCs to cease their hostilities. I don't really know what else to say if you give these warnings and the PCs still insist on killing innocents - You cant win them all. The suggestion that because some folks betray you - everyone NPC in the game becomes meat for slaughter is frankly ludicrous. Otherwise you'd never have doublecross in an RPG.</p><p></p><p>No, because the players perception is based on what you show them. They will see squads of reinforcements approaching and either stay and kill them. At some point they will get the picture or bounded accuracy will see them captured and taken to the garden.</p><p></p><p>I know that. Its very clear. Its also clear that the girl's choice is decided by the PCs otherwise the girl defaults to <strong>not </strong>assuming the mantle. The Players get to choose whether that happens or not. The PCs choice and behaviour determines whether the Goddess Hel is restored to the Underworld - Hel-a-cool!</p><p></p><p>OK but unsatisfactory imitations or substitutes don't normally melt into ice-water when they die, while simulacrum's do. So lets assusme when they say simulacrum they mean <em>simulacrum.</em></p><p></p><p>Ok so a PC gets dropped to zero hp? So what. Its 5e not 1e. It is highly unlikely to see them out of the game, just unconscious for a bit when a couple of rounds later she is in a position to help them. Don't forget Hollow Hel's default position is kind.</p><p></p><p>This encounter demonstrates how physically powerful she is - and therefore how great an asset at Ragnarok. Its absolutely not a player killer encounter. Unless as a DM you're on auto-pilot.</p><p></p><p>The problem is when a reviewer is extremely dismissive and contemptuous while similarly being wrong about several points. Its good that you are open to reviewing things when its demonstrated. All published adventures have a style. Maybe its worth acknowledging that maybe their style just isn't for you, rather than claiming they are failed writers and the work is garbage.</p><p></p><p>Be that as it may, it doesn't stop this and others like it being amazing value for $25. Amazing value. Saying otherwise just comes across as trying to drive down prices.</p><p></p><p>The party do interact with his head several times through the campaign and he's intrinsic to the game setting so I would say they are an important part. He's clearly the Loki character melded with a bit of Mimmir and its not a bad thing that he's included. His intro text even says:</p><p></p><p>"Though he lacks a body he can influence his primal creations. The wicker, for example, can be nudged by him through dreams and whispers to perform tasks he requires. Sometimes he seeks to thwart Boða"</p><p></p><p>If there is a wicker PC or wicker NPCs nearby you could use him to assist with some of the lack of clarity you feel is present in the campaign.</p><p></p><p>Only part of my argument was Thermian. Totally agree that TV shows are not the same as the PCs having to act it out in the game. However I just don't think some of the Icky things you describe are actually anywhere as bad as you suggest. I'm going to deal with them in turn though rather than out of sequence here. However it’s important to recognize the writers added the content warnings. If someone doesn't like the themes of a campaign then they should definitely take them out. I think this is made pretty clear. Neither should all items that ever might make any person uncomfortable be removed.</p><p></p><p>Part of the content warning:</p><p></p><p>"A grim setting focused on raiding can lead to events disturbing to some players. Ensure you have a conversation with your group prior to starting the campaign. Here’s a summary of possible content that might be problematic (be aware there are spoilers below): [...] Self Injury. A few plot points—such as making an oath or accessing additional benefits at the Well of Wisdom—require the removing of parts of the body. For some players this might be uncomfortable for them or even insensitive to their own experiences. You know your group best—these elements of the campaign can easily be removed."</p><p></p><p>It’s also worth saying that the Background that involves Jul’s sacrifice specifically advises the DM to</p><p>speak to the player and highlights the Jul scene in that introduction.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="TheSword, post: 9208995, member: 6879661"] If Hel doesn't regain her true self then yes you need to add another clue to the Island of Broken Things assuming they didn't go there of their own accord. There are several NPCs in the Underworld that could do this, but the DM would definitely need to improvise this. How objectional you find this is a matter of taste I guess. Are you honestly saying if the PCs failed the check and then decided to give the girl a sparkling bracelet, or a doll, or used [I]calm emotions[/I] or charm magic you would insist on not allowing them the positive outcome because a DC 13 Charisma check wasn't passed. It is conditional. Look at the piece you cropped out... "If the Infestation After Death event (see Introduction) has run, and the heroes did not notice the witchbeetles [B]enter their belongings, then mere hours after they enter the realm, they infest the Underworld with witchbeetles[/B]." Later on at the bridge you get... "[B]If the heroes brought witchbeetles into the realm (see earlier)[/B], then a successful DC 21 Wisdom (Perception) check noti[B]ces the presence of a few witchbeetles[/B] among the golden beetles." At Regulus you get... "[B]If the party has noticed witchbeetles[/B] elsewhere in the Underworld and succeed on a DC 16 Intelligence (Investigation) check now they see three of them crawling on Regulus’s cloak. If confronted he merely shrugs and says, “They are what they are, and she sees only what I say.” There is no inconsistency here. It is really clear that the PCs bring the Witchbeetles in, and if you bring them in and notice that, then they are also spotted on Regulus. If you think the checks are too difficult then fair enough. But to say that it isn't explained is just wrong. Most if not all published adventures have some fixed points. Not least a dungeon with an entrance and steps down to the next level. So I find your suggestion that its not fun, a bit of a stretch. I am really surprised that you find them speaking to The Clipper so objectional. Its an encounter with multiple resolution methods. There are good reasons for the PCs to go there - its the first structure in the Underworld they see and there is a minor hook from scared souls being stopped from continuing their journey. . At least the writers have given some thought to what would happen if they ignore it. Had they not, not doubt the criticism would have been "why wouldn't my PCs just swim the river" or "why wouldn't my PC just climb over the bridge" because PCs are like that. The section of the Underworld is clearly inspired by the H[I]elvegr - [/I]the Road/Way to Hel taken from the Gesta Danorum (History of the Danes). [B]"Then they came to a raging torrent, flowing with weapons. Crossing by a bridge, they came upon armies of fallen warriors, locked in eternal battle. As they pressed forward, a wall stood in their way; they could go no further, but the woman tore off the head of a cock, which she happened to have with her, and flung it over the wall. Immediately the cock came to life and crowed."[/B] Considering the fact that in between these elements the party can move in and around freely the cool factor of having the Underworld actually relate to the norse spiritual journey of the dead outweighs the minor offence caused by one encounter happening after another. As for the dragon, fair play, it's in-world reason for being there isn't given. I personally will have it bound by Hel to ensure souls cross the bridge and are assessed. Maybe it is clumsy as written. Unplayable? Nah. Yes the party shouldn't stay and try and kill every wicked person in the Underworld. Yes that is the correct approach its not a sensible choice. Did you think there would just be a dozen or so wicked souls? Its an active prison fortress. Standing and fighting is a terrible choice - and not one that should be rewarded by allowing the PCs to 'clear' the area and explore at their leisure. If they look in the door ways they see four dozen guards rising from the beds putting on armour and grabbing weapons with noise and clamour from the many other doors. Of course this is only an issue if your PCs decide to open confrontation in the opening encounter or try to assault the guards. None of the section quotes happens if the PCs go to the garden and help free the prisoners. They are still entitled to fight and If they choose open combat then they can either progress forward to the garden which can be seen from the hallway where the conflict would occur or the fall back and leave the place in which case they are free to do that as the prisoners can't leave. Its a flaw in player perception that they believe they should be able to 'clear' everything. As DM you inform the players perception of the world. Its pretty clear from the initial encounters that the dead are once living souls. You even see an old lady climb out of the ground and begin her journey. You get to interact with some unfortunate souls poisoned by their village well water. You get a patrol sent by Hollow Hel to keep the peace and warn the PCs to cease their hostilities. I don't really know what else to say if you give these warnings and the PCs still insist on killing innocents - You cant win them all. The suggestion that because some folks betray you - everyone NPC in the game becomes meat for slaughter is frankly ludicrous. Otherwise you'd never have doublecross in an RPG. No, because the players perception is based on what you show them. They will see squads of reinforcements approaching and either stay and kill them. At some point they will get the picture or bounded accuracy will see them captured and taken to the garden. I know that. Its very clear. Its also clear that the girl's choice is decided by the PCs otherwise the girl defaults to [B]not [/B]assuming the mantle. The Players get to choose whether that happens or not. The PCs choice and behaviour determines whether the Goddess Hel is restored to the Underworld - Hel-a-cool! OK but unsatisfactory imitations or substitutes don't normally melt into ice-water when they die, while simulacrum's do. So lets assusme when they say simulacrum they mean [I]simulacrum.[/I] Ok so a PC gets dropped to zero hp? So what. Its 5e not 1e. It is highly unlikely to see them out of the game, just unconscious for a bit when a couple of rounds later she is in a position to help them. Don't forget Hollow Hel's default position is kind. This encounter demonstrates how physically powerful she is - and therefore how great an asset at Ragnarok. Its absolutely not a player killer encounter. Unless as a DM you're on auto-pilot. The problem is when a reviewer is extremely dismissive and contemptuous while similarly being wrong about several points. Its good that you are open to reviewing things when its demonstrated. All published adventures have a style. Maybe its worth acknowledging that maybe their style just isn't for you, rather than claiming they are failed writers and the work is garbage. Be that as it may, it doesn't stop this and others like it being amazing value for $25. Amazing value. Saying otherwise just comes across as trying to drive down prices. The party do interact with his head several times through the campaign and he's intrinsic to the game setting so I would say they are an important part. He's clearly the Loki character melded with a bit of Mimmir and its not a bad thing that he's included. His intro text even says: "Though he lacks a body he can influence his primal creations. The wicker, for example, can be nudged by him through dreams and whispers to perform tasks he requires. Sometimes he seeks to thwart Boða" If there is a wicker PC or wicker NPCs nearby you could use him to assist with some of the lack of clarity you feel is present in the campaign. Only part of my argument was Thermian. Totally agree that TV shows are not the same as the PCs having to act it out in the game. However I just don't think some of the Icky things you describe are actually anywhere as bad as you suggest. I'm going to deal with them in turn though rather than out of sequence here. However it’s important to recognize the writers added the content warnings. If someone doesn't like the themes of a campaign then they should definitely take them out. I think this is made pretty clear. Neither should all items that ever might make any person uncomfortable be removed. Part of the content warning: "A grim setting focused on raiding can lead to events disturbing to some players. Ensure you have a conversation with your group prior to starting the campaign. Here’s a summary of possible content that might be problematic (be aware there are spoilers below): [...] Self Injury. A few plot points—such as making an oath or accessing additional benefits at the Well of Wisdom—require the removing of parts of the body. For some players this might be uncomfortable for them or even insensitive to their own experiences. You know your group best—these elements of the campaign can easily be removed." It’s also worth saying that the Background that involves Jul’s sacrifice specifically advises the DM to speak to the player and highlights the Jul scene in that introduction. [/QUOTE]
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