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"Railroading" is just a pejorative term for...
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<blockquote data-quote="Janx" data-source="post: 5400051" data-attributes="member: 8835"><p>At this point, I think the king example is beat to death. Fact is, it was a 15the level adventure. it may be plausible, in character for the rogue to make the attempt.</p><p></p><p>I think those of us on the "that's a player being stupid" scenario have seen this kind of "bad" behavior (usually from people acting like 13 year olds). Most likely from a low-level PC doing stuff that every other player knows not to do. And that this situation is differentiated from a PC trying something innovative and daring, rather than WTF are you thinking. Context matters...</p><p></p><p>I'd like to dial back to the guy with the Flashing Blades campaign. The gist was, he said he made a ton of NPCs and had random encounter tables to trigger interactions with them. The idea being, these interactions get the PCs involved in stuff and alter how the PCs will engage the next random encounter which may also have relationships to past encounters.</p><p></p><p>Definitely sounds like a good no matter what kind of game style. When I talk about wanting story elements in my game, this is one of them. Stuff that happened before is related to whats happening now (with "random" stuff and "red herrings" thrown in now and then to break up the pattern. Fiction has this.</p><p></p><p>The question for the sandbox guys is this scenario: You've got X number of plot hooks (opportunities or threats) for the PCs to pursue. They pick one and pursue it.</p><p></p><p>Can you not make what happens next follow the 3 act story model?</p><p></p><p>If you're ad-libbing it using the content you have (locations and NPCs) and re-arranging things, can you not decide to reveal clues when the PCs get off track from their goal (wrong direction, mis-understood clue)? Can you not decide that things are heating up and so this is the "climax". Or that their failure at the last encounter is the "setback".</p><p></p><p>When I hear sandbox guys say you it can't be a story. I call bull-crap. I think you can have no clue on what's going to happen after the current encounter and still incorporate these concepts.</p><p></p><p>I often talk about not liking the idea of a sandbox, yet I love my Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. What I don't like about it, as I hear some folks preface it, is as a "status quo" sandbox. That's BS. With a human at the reigns, I want the world to react to my decisions. That has repercussions in the execution of it, that have to be accounted for in the meta-game.</p><p></p><p>Namely, just as with the argument against Critical Fumbles, the adventurer is going to be presented with more plot hooks (threats and opportunities) that he can't do them all at once. If the GM actively applies the consequences for ignoring them, especially the threats, the PC will ultimately lose. </p><p></p><p>Plus, the fact that PCs really don't have a choice with a threat, no more than you have a choice to ignore the mugger trying to rob you, so you can finish putting your groceries in the car.</p><p></p><p>As one guy said, "its not like the plot hook is going to go away." The reality is, except for static location opportunities, yes, they will go away, as most threats are immediate (the goblins will attack next week if you don't help), or time oriented opportunities (if you don't move in now, another mining company will claim that area).</p><p></p><p>I certainly think you couldn't go wrong with having lots of opportunities as plot hooks. Threats as plot hooks could be looked at as railroads by some, namely because if the PC is vested in the game, he really doesn't have a choice if that threat will affect him.</p><p></p><p>To wind this back to the original OP... Spider Man 2 on the PS2 is a sandbox. If you ignore the "story" quests, you can web-sling around NYC and help all the people you want in random encounters. At the end of the night though, you've technically done stuff, but it's not the samee as going through a story (and I mean a story framed around what your doing).</p><p></p><p>Perhaps, that's what the quote alludes to, a very sandbox of random encounters that don't relate to anything else, and thus don't build up to anything.</p><p></p><p>I'm certain that railroading (in my definition of it) is not the answer to that in any game style.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Janx, post: 5400051, member: 8835"] At this point, I think the king example is beat to death. Fact is, it was a 15the level adventure. it may be plausible, in character for the rogue to make the attempt. I think those of us on the "that's a player being stupid" scenario have seen this kind of "bad" behavior (usually from people acting like 13 year olds). Most likely from a low-level PC doing stuff that every other player knows not to do. And that this situation is differentiated from a PC trying something innovative and daring, rather than WTF are you thinking. Context matters... I'd like to dial back to the guy with the Flashing Blades campaign. The gist was, he said he made a ton of NPCs and had random encounter tables to trigger interactions with them. The idea being, these interactions get the PCs involved in stuff and alter how the PCs will engage the next random encounter which may also have relationships to past encounters. Definitely sounds like a good no matter what kind of game style. When I talk about wanting story elements in my game, this is one of them. Stuff that happened before is related to whats happening now (with "random" stuff and "red herrings" thrown in now and then to break up the pattern. Fiction has this. The question for the sandbox guys is this scenario: You've got X number of plot hooks (opportunities or threats) for the PCs to pursue. They pick one and pursue it. Can you not make what happens next follow the 3 act story model? If you're ad-libbing it using the content you have (locations and NPCs) and re-arranging things, can you not decide to reveal clues when the PCs get off track from their goal (wrong direction, mis-understood clue)? Can you not decide that things are heating up and so this is the "climax". Or that their failure at the last encounter is the "setback". When I hear sandbox guys say you it can't be a story. I call bull-crap. I think you can have no clue on what's going to happen after the current encounter and still incorporate these concepts. I often talk about not liking the idea of a sandbox, yet I love my Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. What I don't like about it, as I hear some folks preface it, is as a "status quo" sandbox. That's BS. With a human at the reigns, I want the world to react to my decisions. That has repercussions in the execution of it, that have to be accounted for in the meta-game. Namely, just as with the argument against Critical Fumbles, the adventurer is going to be presented with more plot hooks (threats and opportunities) that he can't do them all at once. If the GM actively applies the consequences for ignoring them, especially the threats, the PC will ultimately lose. Plus, the fact that PCs really don't have a choice with a threat, no more than you have a choice to ignore the mugger trying to rob you, so you can finish putting your groceries in the car. As one guy said, "its not like the plot hook is going to go away." The reality is, except for static location opportunities, yes, they will go away, as most threats are immediate (the goblins will attack next week if you don't help), or time oriented opportunities (if you don't move in now, another mining company will claim that area). I certainly think you couldn't go wrong with having lots of opportunities as plot hooks. Threats as plot hooks could be looked at as railroads by some, namely because if the PC is vested in the game, he really doesn't have a choice if that threat will affect him. To wind this back to the original OP... Spider Man 2 on the PS2 is a sandbox. If you ignore the "story" quests, you can web-sling around NYC and help all the people you want in random encounters. At the end of the night though, you've technically done stuff, but it's not the samee as going through a story (and I mean a story framed around what your doing). Perhaps, that's what the quote alludes to, a very sandbox of random encounters that don't relate to anything else, and thus don't build up to anything. I'm certain that railroading (in my definition of it) is not the answer to that in any game style. [/QUOTE]
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