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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Remathilis" data-source="post: 5400598" data-attributes="member: 7635">Here's where I end up getting confused/frustrated with the sandbox crowd; what constitutes a "plot"?Lets take, for example a classic canard; there is a tiny keep on the borderlands and there is a bunch of caves not too far away from them that is loaded with monsters and evil cultists. On the surface, this is a quintessential sandbox, right? Lets take it one step further; what are the monster's goals? Why have they all amassed there. Gathering an army? Digging for a lost chieftain's riches? Dupped by a real-estate ponzi scheme? Lets assume, for a moment, they are called by the cultists in cave H* to serve some dark and nefarious master.We're still in sandbox land, all we've done is add some backstory to our dungeon scenario. So reasonably, the PCs are lured by one or more hooks to want to explore the caves. Gold, hostages, fighting evil by moonlight, etc. Waitasecond...First, we assume the PCs actually WANT to go to the caves, because quite easily here the DM could use the power of the choo-choo to force them there. Even if the DM starts them all out in the Keep with the classic 3d6x10 gp worth of stuff, they might, as a group, be more interested in other things. They may want to go south and explore swamps, check out Quasequenton (which the module strictly tells the DM to railroad the PCs away from if he's not prepped for it) or any number of side events. Hell, they may want to raid the keep, kill the guards, rape the horses and ride off on the women while the keep burns. Have we hit our first railroad: the assumption that since the adventure is based around the Caves of Chaos, we are actually GOING to the caves of chaos? However, for simplicity, they are typical PCs and they know the drill; fight, loot, retreat, repeat. Several sessions of increasingly larger HD humanoids later, they reach the Cult. Through luck, will, and guile, they subdue the head priest and one bad save vs. charm person later, the priest sings like a canary about how he's gathering humanoids because his master, Vecna/Orcus/Bane/Sauron whatever, told him to gather an army to march on the realms of men. What we've done is spill the "backstory" we created to the PCs. They are appalled by the revelation, put their "friend" to the sword, and decide they MUST do something about this!** This isn't railroading here, the PCs come to this conclusion on their own. We could, for a moment, assume the PCs feel their job is done and head off to, say, check out the Ghost Tower of Inverness, but they actually feel it is their job to explore this further.What they don't know is that, right now, they bit the DMs plot hook. They did it willingly. No Deity or NPC told them to, no black-robed cultist is holding their friends/family/dog hostage. They have chosen, of their own free will, to figure out what the BBEG is doing and stop him. As the DM, I will continue to throw clues and hints their way as to the nature of their foe, ways to stop him, and occasional "plots" by the bad guys to foil (the king is a doppelganger!).Are we rail-roading yet? I mean, the DM has an end-point in mind (stop the cultists before Armageddon) and the PCs are going to follow the bread-crumbs to get to it. At any point, they can deviate from the trail to do other things (slay a dragon, start a keep, marry the princess, etc) and possibly even give up altogether (and face the consequences of an evil army marching on the realms of man). The PCs aren't strictly "forced" into it, but they will follow my "plot" be reacting to events as well as trying to out-think and outmaneuver the cult. Eventually, if they are smart/lucky/good, they will face the BBEG and stop him once and for all. Is that a rail-road? If yes, why? If not, why not?The DM here is generating the plot. The PCs are reacting to it. Did the PCs just take the last train out of Sandboxland?</blockquote>

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