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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5419517" data-attributes="member: 42582">Umbran, I had in mind a slighlty different distinction - though I don't dispute the importance of the point that you make.The difference that I had in mind is that between games like (on the one hand) Rolemaster, Runequest and Classic Traveller, and (on the other hand) HeroQuest or (as I interpret it) 4e. In the former games, the rules very closely model the ingame causal logic of the gameworld (in Forge terminology, they are purist-for-system simulationist). In the latter games, the rules are closer to "meta-rules", distributing permissions to narrate ingame events, and establishing the parameters that constrain such permissions.Any number of examples could be given. Just to pick one: both RM and RQ have fumble rules. If a fumble result is rolled on the dice, then not only does the action that the player has initiated fail, but we know that, in the gameworld, the PC has made a hash of the attempt. In 4e, on the other hand, a "1" is an automatic miss on an attack, but doesn't dictate anything about what has happened in the gameworld. It might be that the PC attempted an attack that went wild, or was fumbled, but equally it could be that the PC made a brilliant attack, thwarted only by the equal deftness of the opponent. The only constraint on the gameworld imposed by the rules is that whatever is said to happen, it must be consistent with the PC failing to reduce the opponent's ability to fight (because no hp have been delivered, given the miss - and putting to one side powers that do damage even on a miss).To tie this back to your point - the world of RM and RQ is a world in which even the greatest heroes occasionally fumble their attacks. The world of 4e, on the other hand, and depending upon the story preferences of the players/GM (in different groups, a different person might actually enjoy the relevant narrative authority) can be such a world, but equally can be a world in which (at least some) heroes never fumble, and fail on occasion only because they face opponents almost as powerful and skillful as they are.</blockquote>

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