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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MyISPHatesENWorld" data-source="post: 4834594" data-attributes="member: 65684">It isn't the disadvantage to rain of steel. It may be the disadvantage to come and get it with rain of steel, which has nothing to do with using rain of steel to make enemies move away(come and get it being particularly bad at that). It is also the disadvantage of your "more defendery" rain of steel that relies on combat challenge and opportunity attacks (though opportunity attacks don't really do much to encourage moving at all).Yeah, the difference is fighter gets to pick where that spot is (more accurately where those spots are) every round. If he wants you or another to stay out of a spot, so you or another can't safely attack an ally from that spot, he stays adjacent to it. It keeps the enemy in a spot, but only while the fighter is adjacent to it. Being able to move that spot with your ally is a benefit to the power, making you better at defending him, not worse. It isn't a different case. You're limiting the definition of the fighters ability to defend to only the mark/challenge. You're defining "defendery" by one defender classes ability, even though that class has offensive abilities. The weapon talents, tempest and battlerager are are also class abilities - they all allow bonuses to attack and/or damage to all attacks not just combat challenge and opportunity attacks. If defendery means to you: "applies to combat challenge and opportunity attacks and a penalty to hit" then yeah, your version of more defendery to you. But that's an exceedingly narrow definition.Powers can allow the fighter to defend in other ways. Some of that is control - whether making certain spaces unsafe, moving enemies, doing damage to enemies who are where you don't want them to be, imposing conditions. To me, all of that is defendery, because you use it to defend your allies. Keyword being "help" - they aren't the end all and be all of defending. And, I'm not really sure where this choice has much to do with what we're talking about more than tangenitally, in that 1-handed fighters might hit for more damage than 1-handed fighters with Rain of Steel.If the enemy attacks, then moves, he moved and the pwer did what it was supposed to do, moved the enemy away from the ally. He either isn't adjacent to the target any longer, or he makes or starts to make a path for the ally to escape through. Or he moves into a position where another ally can lock him down, finish him or whatever. You can defend your -2 as much as you want, but it isn't going to be useful in situations where Rain of Steel is being used to encourage an enemy to vacate or not occupy a space. It's a different ability, worse at defending in the situations where Rain of Steel is good and better at others. It isn't more defendery, just differently defendery.It makes enemies move to avoid taking damage, which keeps them from attacking or continuing to attack your allies. It also keeps them from moving adjacent to you, which sometimes means not moving adjacent to your allies. Having control of where your enemy can safely move is an advantage. If you want it to move away and not come back, you stay there and make it unsafe to remain there. The threat of taking the damage again encourages it to move.And making it unsafe to be adjacent to your allies because they're also adjacent to you is defendery. Making them move away from your allies is defendery. Making them move away from one ally who needs relief, even if it leaves the enemy free to attack a healthier ally is defendery. Rain of Steel can do all that, you just have to use it that way.Making the monster move away is just as defendery as keeping him in place. Fighters have push powers too. You mentioned zones earlier. Think of Rain of Steel as a zone, centered on the fighter that moves at-will. Are you really saying that a 3x3 zone that damages any enemy that starts its turn in it can't be used to encourage enemies not to occupy an area? And by forcing enemies to vacate or not occupy a space adjacent you and an ally that you aren't defending your ally?Rolling Thunder - Do damage to enemy that leaves square. Chilling Cloud: -2 to attacks if in area. Your defendery suggestion sounds just as controllery. And your additional [W] damage sounds really strikery.  You're ignoring the attack a creature can make before moving and most importantly the fact that it can attack once with no damagge from Rain of Steel in your version or twice only taking damage once. Specifically: "If RoS triggered at the end of their turn, then the decision would be theirs - shift or move to avoid it, triggering the attack, but avoiding the autodamage." By ignoring the attack action, you create the false impression that your version is in any way an improvement. Nonsense. If it triggered at the end, the monster could make an attack, then decide to move to avoid the damage altogether. Or, it could decide to attack twice, taking the damage once, then move before taking it again.Triggering at the beginning, the monster takes the damage. Can attack once, then has to choose between moving or taking the damage second time to get a second attack. Same amount of movement, but the monster has to make the choice to move sooner.Congratulations. That's the second thing you've been right about. Unfortunately, the first was the other time I mistyped the name of the power.The fighter won't move to the enemy if he is using the power to protect his allies by making the squares adjacent to them unsafe. You're assuming that the fighter is going to pursue (and be able to catch) the monster(s) that move away. You're only looking at one way to use the power - as a striker.  Because solos don't have fly or swim speeds or teleport and fighters can always match their movement methods and ignore difficult terrain. And it is never worth letting an ally that is wholly untouched take a little damage after you chase the solo off the guy he mangled with a couple encounter powers and an action point until you can cover the ground and the team regroups...It does what I said it does. Demonstrably, I've used it to do so, multiple times. In situations where you want the enemy to move away, it is a better defender power than powers that make things stick to you. Fighters have powers that push for a reason. Sometimes defending means making something move away and sometimes it means keeping something at bay. Rain of Steel can do that. Something that makes you stickier doesn't.And Pinning Smash can be used to to stop a fleeing enemy so you can kill it, so that makes it a striker power? Sounds like something an avenger would have... Funny, I have Chilling Cloud on my wizard, gives enemies a -2 to hit if they're in the area. That's a defender power? Or is your revision of Rain of Steel a controller power rather than a defender power? Is being more of a controller more defendery? Different classes can use the same effect to different ends. The fact that they can use them for the same ends doesn't make it any less of a good choice for them to fill their role.I don't need a picture to make any point. Karinsdad made the point in his previously mentioned, quite excellent, post. All it would be is here's three pictures where it works. And here's three pictures where it doesn't . And here's three pictures where it does. And here's three pictures where it doesn't. Then I could change it up and say, here's three pictures where being stickier doesn't work. And you could say well here's three pictures... Not worth the time. If you want to say you can't use Rain of Steel to defend your allies, knock yourself out. If anyone reads this thread and agrees with you about that, there's nothing I'm going to say to change their minds.</blockquote>

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