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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MyISPHatesENWorld" data-source="post: 4835024" data-attributes="member: 65684">The assumption that the fighter will always pursue is erroneous. The monsters will try to move out of it. There are cases where the fightger won't pursue. If there are other monsters that could move into the vacated space and threated the ally, no pursuit. If the position has a tactical advantage for the ally or one of the other party memebers, the fighter won't pursue. If not all the monsters moved away, the fighter won't pursue."debuffing enemies, sometimes with all kinds of conditions for escape attached" sounds pretty much like the marking/combat challenge mechanic.If you make up a model that fits what you want to call the power, divorce that from whether the power allows the character to perform its role, and name the classifications the same as roles, you can say that. But you caould just as well call Rain of Steel leadery. Because your made-up classification of leader powers, striker powers, defender powers, controller powers has no relation to whether one of those powers can be used to perform the roles of defender, leader, striker or controller.</blockquote>It isn't always a less optimal choice to pursue. In some situations, it will be a better choice to stay in place. But, it isn't always the optimal choice to make things stay where they are either. Fighters have push powers for areason. Sometimes you need to encourage things to move away. Taking damage automatically at the start of each turn influences whether or not a creature stays where is is.Try this: two enemies who gain bonus damage with combat advantage flanking an ally, no special terrain, in the open. Fighter moves to S,E,W or N square adjacent to ally (the NE,NW,SW,SE corner squares don't always work). The enemies cannot sustain a flank without at least one of them taking retributive damage from Rain of Steel. Retributive damage for sustaining flank = defendery.If the enemies move so as to still be adjacent to the ally but neither are adjacent to the fighter, they lose flanking (effectively -2 to hit and -damage equal to their bonus damage with CA) = defendery.Now if there is nothing else on the map, the fighter might be able to keep shifting or passing forward to be adjacent to one or more of the enemies. But, there will almost always be other things on the map. The fighter may stay where he is to keep another threat at bay (perhaps even one he has locked down with combat challenge or Pinning Smash), he may need to keep an area safer for an ally that can use the position to his advantage or he may need to stay within movement range of a situation he sees developing that will require his attention in a round or two.The power forces decisions from a limited set of options, sometimes none of those options are particularly good. Sometimes, being forced to pick from two or more sub-optimal options, in the midst of combat, forces mistakes. It isn't foolishness, it's the power creating a situation in which mistakes are made. And monsters can have both melee and ranged attacks. Often, the ranged attack does less damage, and doesn't have an effect attached to it. So if the monstger is doing less damage to avoid taking damage, that's defendery.You're assuming the whole party is in one place. A monster moving away from a specific ally or allies that the fighter moves to defend does not equate to a monster moving out of combat. You can use Rain of Steel simplistically to just do some more damage. But you can also use Pinning Smash to lock down a target to kill it like an avenger. The fact that the powers can be used that way doesn't make them striker powers. And choosing them doesn't make the fighter any less of a defender. You can use Rain of Steel to encourage enemies to leave or not enter an area adjacent to allies. Rain of Steel creates situations where the monsters have to make decisions, often none of them good about whether or not to take damage or move away from the target they prefer. If the DM can't seperate that decision being forced on the monster from the decision being forced on him, and pouts, always leaving the monsters in place while complaining that the fighter is using a striker power, then yeah, Rain of Steel won't have any effect. But that isn't because the power can't be used to defend. The DM is choosing to have the monster take the retribution rather than do something the DM doesn't want it to do, even in circumstances where the better choice would be to suck it up and move.[/QUOTE]

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