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Message: <blockquote data-quote="robertliguori" data-source="post: 4114937" data-attributes="member: 47776">I will sum up: the journey to the underworld should exist as a powerful mythic journey, a dark echo of every dungeon delve into the unknown, with ultimate risk and ultimate reward, but it should also be a journey into a real place, with actual, constant rules.  I want a system where you can represent Hades, god of the dead as utterly implacable at ninth level, able to be influenced with extreme skill and luck at nineteenth, and able to be beaten up and his stuff taken at twenty-ninth.  I want my mythic components built out of set-in-stone, understandable rules, and I want there to be either upper limits on how much the myth can work, or alternately, I want recognizable reality and expectations to be thrown out the window when they encounter the trump mythic reality.  It's great to have dragons that represent the destructive elements of human greed and who can be overcome through their lust for treasure, but it's also important to remember that no matter how much of the human condition they model, they are creatures who you can beat with an axe until dead (and then steal their eggs and raise their young in slavery).I am familiar with OoTS, and the event you mention.  I think it shows perfectly why the old rule  works fine.  (Note: Spoilers for old OotS ahead.  Go read it.  Now.  Seriously.  There is nothing in this thread more important than reading OotS if you haven't.In the conclusion of the Azure City plotline, we see two important characters die; Lord Shojo, and Roy.  An attempt is made to resurrect Lord Shojo; however, the attempt fails.  We never hear from him directly, but we do hear a logical explanation from Belkar; Lord Shojo  is in Chaotic (mostly) Good Heaven, and has no particular desire to return only to be imprisoned for his crimes and shortly thereafter die of old age.  One could say that Lord Shojo, with his nonheroic character levels and negative Con modifier, was obviously a minion and had no destiny, and managed to rule Azure City so well by accident...or one could take Lord Shojo as a demonstration that heroism is not about having +5 to attack versus the city guards, but about not having those bonuses, and facing challenges anyway.In an interesting parallel to this discussion, Roy's death takes place under exactly the conditions we now discuss; namely, Roy was under a familial blood oath to not find rest inside the gates of paradise.  However, the powers of Law and Good decide that this is a stupid-ass rule, and admit him anyway.  When Roy does eventually leave Heaven to try his best to aid his companions back in the mortal realm, it is not because the universe encouraged this choice; it's because Roy chose it.If the rules of the universe are that characters with a destiny to fulfill can come back from the dead, then that is the expectation, because that is what most characters would choose.  The drama from both Shojo's failure to return and Roy's sojurn to the mortal realms as a spirit come from the fact that either reaction was possible, but the outcome depended on the choice of the person.I'm going to chime in and declare a flat distate for such inherent mechanisms.  The Raven Lands are an actual place, where the PCs can go, ruled over by an NPC, whom the PCs can avoid, diplomize, or stabify.  Why?  Because one day long ago, you chose to set out and go adventuring, and have chosen to continue every day since.  You have chosen to fight, and been able to win, battle after battle after battle, and have now reached the point where when your own personal Death incarnates and tries to take you, you can have one of your buddies cast Death Ward and then murder your Death at your leisure.  You can exceed playing out the myths of Arachnae and Orpheus and start playing out the Titanomachy, with your party cast as the newly-ascendant gods.I think there is room for both a HoH-esque resurrection ritual with side effects and "Spend a fraction of your net worth (more money than a commoner can easily imaging existing in one place) and undo the nature of mortality as a standard action." in the same universe.Gods as characters, with the abilities and limitations of characters, is a trope that I like in my D&D.  If it makes sense for the god of the dead to be able to choose to release someone's soul, then it should be possible for your character to get into a position to make a similar choice.</blockquote>

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