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<blockquote data-quote="Mark CMG" data-source="post: 5803447" data-attributes="member: 10479">I'm not sure who you're addressing, since I'm one of but a handful on these boards who played wargames since before D&amp;D was even invented.&nbsp; You might mean to be referring to the neo-grogs, those who identify as grognards but aren't really wargamers, just old time RPGers.&nbsp; Us grognards don't much care for that sort of sloppy labeling. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />We also don't make threats, we just tell those making the games how to earn our money.&nbsp; Those who make games know someone can have bought every 4E book ever made, and even the ones that got cancelled, and throw in a DDI sub since it started, and it isn't a drop in the bucket of what a grognard has and would spend on a well-designed game.The trick about marketing to grognards is that, in the end, you do have to come up with a well-designed game or we'll spend our money elsewhere.Countless, my ass.&nbsp; There really aren't enough of us left to use the word &quot;countless&quot; (note the quotes).&nbsp; At the meetings I've been to where grognards tend to gather, like Gary Con coming up in March, 4E didn't come up a whole lot.&nbsp; When it did, some just grunt or shrug but most mention how 4E makes one heck of a combat miniatures game but that the RPing feels tacked on and inconsequential to the rules of the game as written.&nbsp; It's a decent game, just not a very good RPG, and if I'm going to play a skirmish level combat miniatures game there are tons of those out that that are better suited to the task.&nbsp; Which is not to say there aren't some rules in the game worth having in an RPG, they just tend to be combat rules.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mark CMG, post: 5803447, member: 10479"] I'm not sure who you're addressing, since I'm one of but a handful on these boards who played wargames since before D&D was even invented. You might mean to be referring to the neo-grogs, those who identify as grognards but aren't really wargamers, just old time RPGers. Us grognards don't much care for that sort of sloppy labeling. :D We also don't make threats, we just tell those making the games how to earn our money. Those who make games know someone can have bought every 4E book ever made, and even the ones that got cancelled, and throw in a DDI sub since it started, and it isn't a drop in the bucket of what a grognard has and would spend on a well-designed game. The trick about marketing to grognards is that, in the end, you do have to come up with a well-designed game or we'll spend our money elsewhere. Countless, my ass. There really aren't enough of us left to use the word "countless" (note the quotes). At the meetings I've been to where grognards tend to gather, like Gary Con coming up in March, 4E didn't come up a whole lot. When it did, some just grunt or shrug but most mention how 4E makes one heck of a combat miniatures game but that the RPing feels tacked on and inconsequential to the rules of the game as written. It's a decent game, just not a very good RPG, and if I'm going to play a skirmish level combat miniatures game there are tons of those out that that are better suited to the task. Which is not to say there aren't some rules in the game worth having in an RPG, they just tend to be combat rules. [/QUOTE]

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