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Message: <blockquote data-quote="LotusBlossom" data-source="post: 4515003" data-attributes="member: 78402">I was just thinking about your idea of giving a negative bonus to Untrained, but in the context of unifying DC values.  In 4e, we have Ability checks which are d20 + stat bonus, and Skill checks which are d20 + stat bonus + skill bonus (I'm leaving out the 1/2 level modifier which only complicates things more).So, one can see that a DC check for skills (assuming trained is what your shooting for as the default) will need to be +5 higher than a similar DC for an ability check.  If we move to a -5 for untrained skills and +0 for trained and leave off the 1/2 per level), then a trained skill will be d20+STR bonus, the same as a STR check by itself: d20 + STR bonus.  This way we could say DC 20 is a hard task whether or not is for a skill check or an ability check.I do like the simplicity in 4e of no negative modifiers (well almost none), but having -5 for untrained (or non-proficient for weapons) does allow for a more unified DC level system.  If we want to consider attacks, and assume the attacker is proficient with the weapon (+0), then we have d20 + STR + 1/2 level (I like the 1/2 per level for the main class "skill", weapons or spell attacks), the only difference is the 1/2 per level.  This is probably okay as these attacks go against the F/R/W defenses and not DCs.  Also,  the F/R/W scale as 1/2 per level as well, so an 'average' create of the same level can start with a similar DC: ex. DC 10 for average + any type of stat type bonuses, let's say +1 to +5), and we'd have a DC 15 creature + 1/2 it's level, which would be "about" a 50% shot for an attacker with d20 + stat bonus + 1/2 level + any other bonuses.  Thus, the DC level system would still be consistent.Lastly, as noted above, I like the 1/2 level bonus in 4e for some things, but not for everything.  I like it for a classes main attack (or a set of skills if one wants the traditional type of thief character).  But if something is hard (taking example form another thread I read) like a hard climb for a wall (DC20), then for untrained climbers, this should be very hard.  For trained it should be hard.  If a PC has put in extra training besides basic, then maybe it's easier.I do like the idea of skill levels like Untrained -5, Trained +0, Adept/Journeyman/Medium +X, and Master +X.  One could use Feats or such to either train in a skill, or increase your level in the skill.  I also like the idea of being able to use a Feat or such to purchase the ability to add the 1/2 level to an already trained skill, thereby making you much better at that skill, but maybe for 'straight' skills, the levels should suffice, and for class type skills (weapons, spell attacks, diving attacks), one could purchase the 1/2 level bonus -- although I think a straight thief should have the level bonus in some thieving skills if they want.</blockquote>

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