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<blockquote data-quote="RenleyRenfield" data-source="post: 9578220" data-attributes="member: 7044197">Yeah, gonna also say that article is not really correct in its assumptions of there being a difference.&nbsp; And gonna say is 100% dead wrong to say D&amp;D is a mixed ground.&nbsp; Its absolutely 100% wrong to say D&amp;D has any player agency = it has none.&nbsp; period. As usual, there are some really big misunderstandings on what PBTA and FATE are.&nbsp; They are not &quot;Narrative Control&quot; games, they are &quot;Player Agency&quot; games.&nbsp; So let's talk about that... First off = Tables and Randomization These have nothing to do with or against or about Player Agency or Narrative Control when addressing players.&nbsp;&nbsp; Random tables are GM facing tools, and have nothing to do with players.&nbsp; They are a tool for a GM to create 'something' on the spot.&nbsp; Maybe its a confrontation, maybe its a treasure found, maybe its a NPC initial disposition.&nbsp; PBTA can use these, and it changes nothing.&nbsp; OSR and D&amp;D can not use these, and they work fine too.&nbsp;&nbsp; Neither D&amp;D nor OSR use a table roll to determine an entire combat from beginning to ending.&nbsp; Nor do they use a table to determine the result of a long overland adventure, from start to finish.&nbsp; They are there to help the GM determine what to insert for a given moment.&nbsp; Enter area?&nbsp; Roll random encounter.&nbsp; Leave town? Roll random encounter.&nbsp; Get critical hit?&nbsp; roll random gore damage.&nbsp; Etc etc.&nbsp;&nbsp; Anything can use these.&nbsp; They have no impact on player agency. With that said... All Tequila is Mezcal, not all Mezcal is Tequila. Not all Narrative Control is Player Agency, all Player Agency is Narrative Control.&nbsp; PBTA, FATE, FiTD are Player Agency games with rules for limiting the GM too.. that's a large difference. What that means is = games like OSR and D&amp;D = Do not care what the player says.&nbsp; They do not care what the player character's current position is.&nbsp; In these games, when the player makes a roll, succeed or fail = it is always 100% rules tell exact result, or GM fiat as to how to resolve that roll.&nbsp;&nbsp; - In the case of rules resolve, such as swing a sword.&nbsp; You hit, you hit and roll damage.&nbsp; You miss, you miss and do nothing.&nbsp; Nobody can change that outcome in D&amp;D or OSR as per rules. - In the case of GM fiat resolve, when you roll.&nbsp; You get success, the GM gets to decide what success means.&nbsp; And when you fail, the GM gets to decide what failure means.&nbsp; D&amp;D and OSR have no rules to allow otherwise. In PBTA or FitD the above is simply not allowed or even resolved that way.&nbsp; And no charts or tables would change that.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="RenleyRenfield, post: 9578220, member: 7044197"] Yeah, gonna also say that [B]article is not really correct i[/B]n its assumptions of there being a difference. And gonna say is 100% [B]dead wrong to say D&D is a mixed ground.[/B] Its absolutely 100% wrong to say D&D has any player agency = [B]it has none[/B]. period. As usual, there are some really big misunderstandings on what PBTA and FATE are. They are not "Narrative Control" games, they are "Player Agency" games. So let's talk about that... [B]First off = Tables and Randomization [/B] These have nothing to do with or against or about Player Agency or Narrative Control when addressing [I]players[/I]. Random tables are [I][B]GM facing tools[/B][/I], and have [I]nothing to do with players[/I]. They are a tool for a GM to create 'something' on the spot. Maybe its a confrontation, maybe its a treasure found, maybe its a NPC initial disposition. PBTA can use these, and it changes nothing. OSR and D&D can not use these, and they work fine too. Neither D&D nor OSR use a table roll to determine an entire combat from beginning to ending. Nor do they use a table to determine the result of a long overland adventure, from start to finish. They are there to help the GM determine what to insert for a given moment. Enter area? Roll random encounter. Leave town? Roll random encounter. Get critical hit? roll random gore damage. Etc etc. Anything can use these. They have no impact on player agency. With that said... [B]All Tequila is Mezcal, not all Mezcal is Tequila. [/B] Not all Narrative Control is Player Agency, all Player Agency is Narrative Control. PBTA, FATE, FiTD are Player Agency games with rules [I]for limiting the GM too[/I].. that's a large difference. What that means is = games like [B]OSR and D&D = Do not care what the player says[/B]. They do not care what the player character's current position is. In these games, when the player makes a roll, [I]succeed or fail = it is always 100% rules tell exact result, or GM fiat as to how to resolve that roll. [/I] - In the case of rules resolve, such as swing a sword. You hit, you hit and roll damage. You miss, you miss and do nothing. Nobody can change that outcome in D&D or OSR as per rules. - In the case of GM fiat resolve, when you roll. You get success, the GM gets to decide what success means. And when you fail, the GM gets to decide what failure means. D&D and OSR have no rules to allow otherwise. In PBTA or FitD the above is simply not allowed or even resolved that way. And no charts or tables would change that. [/QUOTE]

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