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Message: <blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7519330" data-attributes="member: 6919838">I dont see a contradiction as you do. The guidelines on when to call for rolls and not calling for rolls of the outcome is certain are fine as far as they go.So are the rules where effects and sprlls provide info on what a made or failed save means. There is no contradiction there. The lists of what happens when saves fo one way or the other or that the spell requires a save is the general statement of how the effect works. The fact that a given target might not be able to fail or succeed is not accounted for in that, just like it doesn't account for immunity or invalid tsrgets.</blockquote>