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<blockquote data-quote="doctorbadwolf" data-source="post: 7526213" data-attributes="member: 6704184">You're completely miss-characterizing my arguments. I haven't once indicated that your position is that &quot;hard saves are bad&quot;. Not once, ever. I even explicitly clarified the first time you misunderstood my point. That is either a lazy failure to read my posts, or a lie. I also never said that any given singular rule is necessary for any of the design goals listed. I argued that this particular thing we're arguing about accomplishes those things, and further that the &quot;horrendous&quot; irregularity you keep insisting is a terrible mistake rather than a thing you just subjectively don't like, is a good way to accomplish those goals. You are still just repeating your claims, rather than defending them, by the way. We also all, every one of us, know the numbers involved. You aren't giving new info when you repeat them. Again. The numbers also aren't the point. The point is whether the state of epic save DCs is good or bad, in that there exist epic save DCs which a person with no Ability Score bonus in the relevant score cannot succeed on without magical assistance of some kind. I contend that it's good, you contend that it is bad. Nowhere have I claimed that your argument is anything else other than that. In the one place wherein you seem to have read me as implying it, I clarified already. Your insistence on painting this as somehow an objetive subject about which the people who disagree with you are factually wrong, and your dishonest insistence on trying to paint me as arguing in bad faith, as well as the melodramatics about people &quot;taking the rules as holy writ&quot;, and design that you don't like being &quot;horrendous&quot;, are unbecoming and obnoxious, and completely beneath you. I don't have a perfect memory, to be sure, but I don't remember seeing this sort of behavior from you before.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="doctorbadwolf, post: 7526213, member: 6704184"] You're completely miss-characterizing my arguments. I haven't once indicated that your position is that "hard saves are bad". Not once, ever. I even explicitly clarified the first time you misunderstood my point. That is either a lazy failure to read my posts, or a lie. I also never said that any given singular rule is [B]necessary [/B]for any of the design goals listed. I argued that this particular thing we're arguing about accomplishes those things, and further that the "horrendous" irregularity you keep insisting is a terrible mistake rather than a thing you just subjectively don't like, is a [B]good way[/B] to accomplish those goals. You are still just repeating your claims, rather than defending them, by the way. We also all, every one of us, know the numbers involved. You aren't giving new info when you repeat them. Again. The numbers also aren't the point. The point is whether the state of epic save DCs is good or bad, in that there exist epic save DCs which a person with no Ability Score bonus in the relevant score cannot succeed on without magical assistance of some kind. I contend that it's good, you contend that it is bad. Nowhere have I claimed that your argument is anything else other than that. In the one place wherein you seem to have read me as implying it, I clarified already. Your insistence on painting this as somehow an objetive subject about which the people who disagree with you are factually wrong, and your dishonest insistence on trying to paint me as arguing in bad faith, as well as the melodramatics about people "taking the rules as holy writ", and design that you don't like being "horrendous", are unbecoming and obnoxious, and completely beneath you. I don't have a perfect memory, to be sure, but I don't remember seeing this sort of behavior from you before. [/QUOTE]

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