Ranger druid multiclass question (possible catch 22)

[ncc4781]

I wanted to create a character with the same feel as a 3e druid. The concept being that I would A. the ability to wild shape effectively, B. an animal companion, C. cast spells, and D. not need to swing a sword to hit things.

stats: Str 14, Con 15, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8 (at level 1)
At-Wills: Predator Strike, Savage Rend, Storm Spike (at level 11)

I started with a half elf ranger with an animal companion and I choose the druid evocation Savage Rend as the Dilettante power. I also took the Initiate of the Old Faith feat that game me wild shape at will and the pounce evocation as an encounter power. At level 11 I will take the Versatile Master feat and make Savage Rend an at will power. Also I would go paragon multiclassing and swap out a ranger for a druid at-will power.

I accomplish all of my goals with the possible exception of D., the limited number of ranger beast powers makes it difficult to choose powers that don’t have both you and your companion attack. But even as the RAW I can live with it. So far so good, here is where things get tricky.

Dealing with wild shape and an animal companion, how does one control an animal in wild shape? Can a ranger give the basic commands outlined on page 41 of Martial Power? Can the companion use at will, encounter, or daily powers that only involve the companion? I would think a ranger wild shaped in a wolf would have an easier time communicating with his wolf companion not a harder time but if the answer to these question is no then it brings up a bigger problem.

MP page 42 says “In situations where you can’t command your beast companion, it can act independently.” If you can’t command your companion because you are in wild shape then by the RAW the companion can act on its own and the player gets two turns. Wizards has told us that this is wrong in 4e. Getting two turns is not an option but having the companion be deadweight is not an option either. If you can’t command the companion in wild shape it can do nothing, not even move. Not only does this hamper combat but makes it that you can’t even walk with your companion. If you wild shape your pet stops moving until you are no longer around. Once that happens of course it’s going to come after you but once it is in range it stops because you can’t command it, very silly.

Thank you for reading, I know it’s a little long. Please comment on the problem, the build, or anything else I might have missed. Remember I am going by the RAW.

 

[Starfox]

MP page 42 says “In situations where you can’t command your beast companion, it can act independently.”

My reasong is that this applies if you are dead, unconscious, or away. Is there a rule that says you cannot control an animal companion in wildshape? "While you are in beast form, you can't use attack, utility, or feat powers that lack the beast form keyword" As far as I can tell, controlling the animal (outside of the specific powers that make both you and your companion act togeter) is not a power, and wildshape restricts powers.


Does it make sense that you'd have less empathy with an animal when in animal shape yourself? Not really.

 

[ncc4781]

Well those are the examples they give in the book but the rule applies to any time you cant command your pet.

 

[keterys]

Why don't you just make sure your DM is okay with you commanding the pet while wild shaped (I'd imagine so), then you're all good.

Fwiw, you're perfectly able to give commands at any time while wild shaped, just as much as you're able to give commands while keeping your mouth closed. Choosing not to take the necessary step (un-shifting potentially in the former depending on DM interpretration, opening your mouth in the latter) doesn't make you unable. Just unwilling.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There isn't anything in the wildshape description that precludes taking actions which are part of a class feature, as long as they are not specifically described as powers. Nothing in the beast master build suggests that giving ordinary commands to your companion requires the use of a power. Thus by RAW there should be no problem. I guess it is within the realm of interpretation by a DM though. DM could rule you have to be able to talk to give commands, but again beast master doesn't actually state that commands are verbal in nature. It says exactly "the beast must be able to see or hear you." The beast can certainly see you in beast form, and it can even hear you since presumably you can make noises of some kind.

In any case I would think any reasonable DM would accept that interpretation since it seems like a creative sort of character build. Some DMs like to ban things, but unless there was some really serious basic abusive problem with the build that I can't find it would sure be welcome in my campaign.

 

[keterys]

I'd agree, fwiw... commanding beasts while wild shaped is cool. Just no trying to get two actions out of it

 

[Vaeron]

Nice thinking. Very clever use of multiclassing options!

Anyway, animals work together (especially hunting animals like wolves) all the time. Wolf Pack Tactics and all that. There's no reason you couldn't work in concert even if, technically, you can't vocally give commands. Animals attack via signals all the time. Creep in silence, wait to pounce, and then attack when the alpha animal finally gives the go ahead.

I think it'd be fine. Certainly you wouldn't be counted as unconscious or debilitated and the animal companion given a complete set of actions. That'd be cray-zay.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

One potential problem I could see a rules-sticky DM bringing up: "While you are in beast form, you can't use attack, utility, or feat powers that lack the beast form keyword." As far as I can tell, that gives a DM a RAW reason to ban the use of any ranger power when you're in beast form. I believe you can command your companion to make a melee basic attack without using a power, but using a beast (companion, not form) encounter power may not be possible while in beast form.

As a DM, I'd probably let it slide, just because it's cool. Of course, I might be misinterpreting things; if so, please correct me

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

One potential problem I could see a rules-sticky DM bringing up: "While you are in beast form, you can't use attack, utility, or feat powers that lack the beast form keyword." As far as I can tell, that gives a DM a RAW reason to ban the use of any ranger power when you're in beast form. I believe you can command your companion to make a melee basic attack without using a power, but using a beast (companion, not form) encounter power may not be possible while in beast form.

As a DM, I'd probably let it slide, just because it's cool. Of course, I might be misinterpreting things; if so, please correct me

Oh, I think you are quite correct. BUT even without being able to use actual beast powers at least you can still command the beast companion, which makes it a viable concept. There is still the tradeoff, take beast form and loose some of the buffs on your companion, or take human form and loose the wildshape advantages but gain companion powers. I haven't read PHB2 yet, so I am not sure how difficult it is to go back and forth during an encounter. Depending on just how difficult it would be I might be inclined to make some sort of house rule. Also depends on how good wildshape is. If it seemed to be too advantageous then it might be one of those things where you could house rule in a feat that would provide some access to the beast keyword powers while in beast form, or just allow it outright if it doesn't give away too much.

The concept is definitely very cool and cool builds should be encouraged to the max, short of making the PC so unbalanced that it is unfair to the other players.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

If I understand the snippets I've seen on the internets, changing from human to beast form or back is a minor action, usable once per round. 1/round restriction is because you get to shift 1 square when you go back to human form, and there's a feat that lets you change as a free action. So it really isn't a problem to change back and forth several times per encounter if you need to.