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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 6702724" data-attributes="member: 20323">You're welcome! I'm forwarding some thoughts from friends I shared your 2nd version of the Ranger with....From Jason:jason_tirius [7:39 AM] My 2p:  I think the redesign of the ranger from WoTC's perspective is based around the idea that many of the things that used to define the ranger are available to everyone.  It's not a matter of being underpowered, but a matter of the flavor of the class is diluted.The design above is pretty neat and addresses some of that, but it also seems to be focused on increasing the ranger's power.  (Not necessarily a bad thing, just an observation).  Multiclass needs to be reviewed since a dip in ranger gets you some really good advantages and 2 levels in ranger gives you a CR 1 combatant that you can field.  I would certainly take that over just about any other level 2 feature from MC in other classes.  The issue being most multiclass options "fall off" with letting your MC levels down because they give you a feature + your class level -- where the ranger MC in this case adds your overall level by applying your proficiency bonus.  A fix for this might be an accounting issue, but adding your proficiency bonus _gained from any ranger level_ would probably clean it up.   I'd add a chart for that for easy calculation.  Doing it this way means -- like every multiclass -- it's very powerful if you take it at low levels and then tapers off as you don't put levels into that class.  (Note I didn't look at anything but beast master).Beyond that, the primary differences between that build and the current PHB build are:1.)  You gain access to an animal companion sooner and your animal companion works in concert with you sooner.2.)  You gain access to higher level creatures.For item number 1.  -- I think this was a design intention so as not to overshadow other characters.  It signifies that your beast companion is still leaning to fight with you.  Once you receive extra attack (at level 5) you can now fight beside your beast companion with each of you taking one attack.  At 7th level your beast companion basically grants you an "always on" advantage for a bonus action, and at 11th level you're attacking once yourself and twice with your beast companion which is fairly equivalent to other classes.  Versus the revised version where you're attacking 2 times at level 2 and 3 times at level 7.  (Which is faster than even the fighter -- who gets their 3rd attack at 11 and is the only class who can attack 4 times).Not that RAW (which is the powergamer's Bible) a 7th level ranger from the PHB spends a bonus action to have advantage (Help) on every skill they ever make.  That's a good mechanic because there's action economy involved.  From the revised version, you can only have your Animal Companion Help when you Help...and since multiple helps aren't actually that great, it's a suboptimal choice.  You can also never have your animal companion help YOU, which seems counterintuitive.My suggested fix for this would be to combine the two, reintroducing action economy in the form of bonus actions.  But then, I always liked 4e's minor action because it presented a choice.jason_tirius [7:48 AM] Lastly, there are some "false options" or "traps" inherent in your choices.  A ranger that chooses Help, Hide, and Disengage is at a wildly different power curve than a ranger that chooses Attack.jason_tirius [7:53 AM] I would recommend you always give Attack, and then they choose 2 other options (although I'm not sure the benefit of limiting them to the TYPE of action, or where the roleplay in that comes in).  Now that I'm thinking about it, I would recommend you do away with the "attack and choose two" overall and call them "trained actions."  Looking at them from the perspective of:  These are the things you would want your companion to do with you -- the most optimal choices are always Attack, Disengage, Hide if you're a melee ranger or Attack, Dodge, Hide if you're a ranged ranger.  Help in this context is always cool because you can help 2 other people be awesome, but it's not fun unless you're playing a support class.  Dash is okay, but typically a beast is going to move fairly fast anyway and if you're riding him it's a wasted action to make him dash.jason_tirius [7:54 AM]Trained actions would probably be better as "Your beast attacks when you do" anything other than that is a bonus action or you can use your action to command him to do it.jason_tirius [7:54 AM]I'd have to give that more thought, but...jason_tirius [7:55 AM]7:552.)  A ranger that takes the first two of their wilderknacks as Animal Companion and Beast Champion will never feel more powerful than they do at level 2.  I'm thinking Beast Champion needs a level requirement.  The reason being -- you've now allowed a level 2 character access to a creature that is the equivalent of 5 level one PCs.  The beast will outshadow the PC by far (consider just the ability of multiattack alone, not uncommon on CR 1s).  Again, the only character that gets 4 attacks is the fighter at level 20 and this character will get 4 attacks at level 7 with the same action economy).I'd take the approach more of allowing a beast to "level up" and having the ranger choose the actions that are most appropriate to the beast.jason_tirius [7:55 AM]I think it's a cool idea, I just think it needs to be fleshed out more.From Carl:carl_lightningpipe [10:40 AM] I think the Steel Dragon guide to 5e rangers is generally good.  But animal companion CRs should probably be adjusted.  CR 1/4 is reasonable at PC levels below 5 or so.  CR 1 should probably wait until closer to level 10 (say, level 7 or 8?) given how powerful CR 1 creatures are.  Consider that a Brass Dragon Wyrmling is only CR 1 and would give access to a flying mount as well as both fire breath and sleep breath…  There are at least two ways this could be done.  One way could be to split “Animal Companion” and “Beast Champion” into multiple wilderknacks, such that such that “Beast Champion” requires 2 or 3 prerequisite wilderknacks instead of just one.  For example, the “choose 3 action types” part of Animal Companion could be spun off into a new wilderknack (say “Companion Combat Training”), and then Animal Companion as originally written would take 2 wilderknacks.  Then, Beast Champion would require *both* Animal Companion and Companion Combat Training, plus 1 more wilderknack of any kind as a prereq — this would mean that the earliest a character could have access to Beast Champion — and the flying Brass Dragon Wyrmling mount — would be level 6.  Still quite powerful, but reasonable for a specialist. (edited)carl_lightningpipe [10:44 AM]Another way to deal with this would be to have animal companion CR levels simply be separate and hard-coded into the Ranger Feature Progression as a column that levels up, just like proficiency bonuses and wilderknacks.  Say, maximum CR 1/4 > CR 1/2 >  CR 1 > CR 2 for animal companions, with changes at appropriate threshold levels.  Doing it this way could also open the option of splitting the CR ratings across multiple animal companions, so for example a level 15 beastmaster could be in charge of a whole pack of wolves.</blockquote>

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