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<blockquote data-quote="LokiDR" data-source="post: 448061" data-attributes="member: 6239">Ranger is bad at dungeon crawls, or at least not optimized for them, right?&nbsp; Well, a large amount of the DMG is devoted to this aspect of the game.&nbsp; It is part of the name of the game.&nbsp; It seems strange that we can agree that a ranger is weak at dungeons, but not agree that it is a weak class overall.Ok, new theory.&nbsp; If rangers are supposed to be good outside the underground fortified defense installation (dungeon) to make up for the weakness in the dungeon, lets look at them there.&nbsp; What do you do outside?&nbsp; You move over land, run into random encounters,&nbsp; talk to NPCs, search out materials, and fortify positions.&nbsp; Not a complete list, but this should show some points.&nbsp; Rangers should do several of these things better than most, to make up for being substandard in those dungeons.Move over land:&nbsp; better than most, with wilderness lore, hide, and spot.&nbsp; Ok, rangers make good scouts.&nbsp; I would put them above rogues, the nearest competition.Random Encounters:&nbsp; Spot helps them see it coming.&nbsp; They are as prepared as they will ever be, not really worrying about spells.&nbsp; The lack of Uncanny Dodge, though, so I would put them under barbarian and rogue.Talk to NPCs:&nbsp; No reason to be better than most, less than those with high cha.&nbsp; Maybe they would be good with other rangers, but most people live in cities, and rangers aren't found there much.Search out Materials:&nbsp; Scouting, good.&nbsp; Information skills, not so good.&nbsp; With no gather info, they can only do half a &quot;find the sacred ...&quot; by searching an area.Fortify Positions:&nbsp; Spell casters are first here.&nbsp; You can build an entire tower for next to nothing with stone shape and wall of stone.&nbsp; Rangers could take craft:traps, but so can every one else.&nbsp; All in all, bottom.My conclusion, rangers only really make good scouts, and most of that is skills.&nbsp; If the ranger could have more special abilities, like uncanny dodge, that help in the scouting.&nbsp; Ambidexterity and TWF really don't seem to fit.&nbsp; Tracking is nice.&nbsp; Spell casting should be greater, and more focused on scouting.&nbsp; This would confirm the ranger's place as definitely useful part of most parties.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="LokiDR, post: 448061, member: 6239"] Ranger is bad at dungeon crawls, or at least not optimized for them, right? Well, a large amount of the DMG is devoted to this aspect of the game. It is part of the name of the game. It seems strange that we can agree that a ranger is weak at dungeons, but not agree that it is a weak class overall. Ok, new theory. If rangers are supposed to be good outside the underground fortified defense installation (dungeon) to make up for the weakness in the dungeon, lets look at them there. What do you do outside? You move over land, run into random encounters, talk to NPCs, search out materials, and fortify positions. Not a complete list, but this should show some points. Rangers should do several of these things better than most, to make up for being substandard in those dungeons. Move over land: better than most, with wilderness lore, hide, and spot. Ok, rangers make good scouts. I would put them above rogues, the nearest competition. Random Encounters: Spot helps them see it coming. They are as prepared as they will ever be, not really worrying about spells. The lack of Uncanny Dodge, though, so I would put them under barbarian and rogue. Talk to NPCs: No reason to be better than most, less than those with high cha. Maybe they would be good with other rangers, but most people live in cities, and rangers aren't found there much. Search out Materials: Scouting, good. Information skills, not so good. With no gather info, they can only do half a "find the sacred ..." by searching an area. Fortify Positions: Spell casters are first here. You can build an entire tower for next to nothing with stone shape and wall of stone. Rangers could take craft:traps, but so can every one else. All in all, bottom. My conclusion, rangers only really make good scouts, and most of that is skills. If the ranger could have more special abilities, like uncanny dodge, that help in the scouting. Ambidexterity and TWF really don't seem to fit. Tracking is nice. Spell casting should be greater, and more focused on scouting. This would confirm the ranger's place as definitely useful part of most parties. [/QUOTE]

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