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Message: <blockquote data-quote="vturlough" data-source="post: 264645" data-attributes="member: 3268">Greetings!Thanks for the replies.This never works out as I intend.  That's the problem with trying to communicate in an impersonal medium.  Let me start out with praises again, so people understand why I do play DND.DND is very good for levels under about 12th or so.  VERY GOOD.  I really like how it plays.  That is pretty much true no matter the edition.  It is also well known and wide spread.  If I try and get a group of people to play Alternity, if I am *lucky* ONE person in one hundred will have heard of it, much less played it.  It is like Magic.  I don't really prefer Magic.  I think there are much better games out there.  It is still supported though and you can find Magic players anywhere.  Same for DND.  Another big point.  How about this?  What CAN we agree on that DND does not do well?  DND is NOT consistent.  The style of play that players do changes as levels increase.  In the beginning, players are generally cautious.  When one or two hits can take a person out, there is more planning.  As levels increase, players get egos.  Even villains their levels cannot take them out in one blow.  The style is not the same.  [Part of that is heroic and the heroic style but it can be achieved in different ways.]Computer games can do things that the pen and paper cannot.  And sometime, they improve on it.  The first pool of radiance did more for miniature gaming, for myself and my players, than anything else.  It showed a way to use a grid for miniature battles that wasn't wargaming (i.e. anal) in its rules.  As I said, NWN also adds in elements that can easily be used that don't break "balance"."Balance"  Come on!  The very fact that a DM has to "balance" what a character gets and when means that items are important.  I don't like that I can't play a high level character with no items (as I tended to do) and be even a third as efficient as someone with items.  I don't want the ITEMS to be the emphasis.  Anyway, let me get to specifics.  Bob:  Laying that much on the GM is not a good answer.  While the expression "a bad worker always blames his tools" there is also the expression "the right tool for the right job."  (That opens up more than I mean, I know, but I will ignore it for now.)  I can't do more than what the most popular, most loved system allows me to do.  (Players do get to veto anything I do in a game I run.  They don't have to show up.)  Also, several of the game designers have said that at higher levels, the modifer is more important than the roll.  Therefore, at some point this is out of the DMs hands.  I am not saying it can't be done but how to do it?  And, by changing that, what else am I affecting?  (I have a friend who DMs who keeps chaning the numbers on his players to make it challenging.  For every single thing!  There are no more DCs of less than 30 for the thief because the thief played by the rules and is good.  Is that fair?)I think you are missing my point about items.  Yes, at any point, a DM can change things.  I think you support my point, though, because every time you say the DM can do this, it says to me the system is broken and needing to be fixed by the DM.  That's the problem.  It is like using DOS on a P4 2.6 GHz machine.  You are still limited by the base OS.  Yes, you can say it works.  DOS screams on that system.  But, do you want to use an old antiquated OS on a new computer?  In the end, if you like something that has flaws, keep it.  I like to speak my mind and perhaps make something better.  I don't accept things as they are now because they can be better in the future if we talk about it and do something about it.  *rant over  deep breath*Furn:  Very valid points.  I don't have players that are open to those but I might try.  I do own them and Spycraft and CoC seem to be pretty good without having played them yet.  Good ideas!bwgwl:  And I am hoping my players will be up for d20 SW in a year or so after we have done the first DND campaign.  I am hoping to see how good it is.tjasamcarl:  Again, it isn't personal preferences if the SYSTEM is at fault.  If the mechanics don't support what I am talking about, I am constrained by the mechanics, not my imagination.  YES, I can change whatever I want.  The more I change, though, the more I have to explain to players, get their okay (or, again, they might not show up) and then do pages and pages of write ups.  And my point is that there are some problems with the system.  Hammerhead:  Um.  Got to disagree with your disagreement.  *grin*  I will say this:  The same PL items are all equal.  Of course a rocket launcher vs a spear is unfair.  Duh.  Within the PLs, though, things are very consistent and work well together.  Here is where the GM does have control, as others suggested, by allowing or not allowing items.  I did that and it worked well.  (And I didn't use items they couldn't get against them.)  There is a HUGE difference between a 24/12/6 and +18.  Come on!  If you know Alternity, you know that!  First of all, with a stat MAXING at 14, 10 levels in a skill, where 12 is highest, is HUGE!  This is a person who is both high in natural ability (at least a 12 attribute) and high skill (10 - 12, which again is max).  The +18 could be gotten by a mid range character, easily.  The Alternity character would have had to have been playing a while to get that good!  Also, Alternity characters might get two or three hits at that level but with some pretty hefty penalties.  A fighter, with a BAB of 18, could have six attacks with the right feats!  BIG DIFFERENCE!  Um.  Okay, we will really have to agree to disagree.  Armor was MADE to resist and absorb blows, not make someone HARDER to hit.  It makes it easier.  NOT DAMAGE, to hit.  And, imo, if you get HIT by a 5 # sword swung by a strong person, it should hurt!  Alternity reflects this.  DND does not.  Hit or miss, that's it.  Alternity also reflects that as you get wounded, you get tired.  DND allows you to fight at 1 hp with full strength!  I also took out a player, by knocking him out but not killing him, via secondary damage.  That is a very important aspect of Alterntiy that you glossed over.  You also glossed over that you don't need armor to survive but it certainly increases those odds.  That's the point of armor!  At least you do give credit to the wound system of Alternity, which is really good.  *In the end, yes, I will be playing DND.  I do love that you guys defend it so passionately.  I do at times as well.  It is also a great system for less than 12th level.  It just doesn't stay consistent and does have some mechanic issues.Can we agree on that?  turlough (edg)</blockquote>

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