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Message: <blockquote data-quote="evildmguy" data-source="post: 265500" data-attributes="member: 6092">Excellent posts!Greetings!An excellent discussion.  Thanks for the replies!  perhaps what I should have called this, instead of "rant on d20" is "why WotC should have used Alternity".  Droogie:  Excellent points and that is what I do as well.  I had considered a huge add on by someone on the boards that convereted all armor to a deflection bonus and DR.  In the end, though, I decided it was too complicated and not worth the effort.  It would also probably make the game less fun and who wants that?  ajanders:  Sorry, man, that was too tough to read!  I didn't get through it all.  LostSoul:  Thanks!  And Yes!  That is the point, to some extent.  I have certainly done a lot of house rules through the years and will continue to do so.  Nightfall:  Um.  Setting?  Did I miss something?  Or did you mean DND as a game system?  I agree that in the age of the internet, it sure feels like we are more connected to everything now.Okay, big one here:hammerhead:  Okay, these are big points for me.  In part, because I don't know that understanding of my points is there from what I read.  I am going to try again.There is a BIG difference between powerful magic in DND and powerful tech in Alternity.  Again, this is a game "engine" or mechanics difference.  ALL spells in DND must be cast by a spell caster.  Arcane spells higher than 6th level can only be cast by Sorcerer and Wizard.  7th level spells are gained at 13th level, etc.  Therefore, it takes a dedicated spell caster to get prismatic spray and a bigger dedication to get Meteor Swarm.  Even assuming that they can get an item and use it, there is some chance of failure (scrolls) and it could be dangerous.  (I would require a Spellcraft check to place it properly.)  A level one wizard and sorcerer could try and use a Meteor Swarm Scroll but would have a big chance to fail and that could be disastrous.In contrast, a starting character in Alternity can attempt anything.  The difference is how good of an attempt they can make.  If the started character got a laser rifle, they can use it, but they won't be very good at it for a while.  They will "grow into" their weapon.  There is nothing about that weapon that allows them to use it better.  Again, this is game mechanics and the difference between a Fantasy with magic world and a more modern setting.  [DND Rule Suggestion:  Items have level limits before they can be used?  Just as it is done in NWN?  So, the caster level to make is the user level to use?  This would allow some "growing into" the item as the character figures out more as they go.]Further, because technology is *easy* compared to magic, anyone can try and hit someone with the most advanced rifle.  Not everyone can use magic.  That's a big difference.  Another example if farming.  I can't farm.  Not a whit.  If you give me a plow and an ox, I am going to go foraging.  If I get a tractor, though, I might be able to figure out how to plant something to harvest.  Again, that's the difference with technology.  For both systems, it is also what the DM allows.  The items you quoted would be minor artifacts in DND!  It isn't a fair comparison to give huge items in Alternity and not discuss what the equal would be in DND!  As far as combat is concerned, the mechanics make a BIG difference!  This is what I am not sure if you understood.  Even a veteran character in Alternity has to be worried about some street punks with guns.  That's the way it should be.   The veteran character will win, most likely, but he could be wounded in the exchange.  That makes sense.  It also emphasises the character (checking against their skill) instead of the items (checking against a given AC).  In DND, a 12th level character would laugh at a group of 1st level characters.  They don't stand a chance of even hitting him except on a 20.Good ideas about items.  Special abilities to mimic items.  I like it.  Again, I also like my idea about minimum level to use something.  Good idea!Again, with your paragraph about the Alternity 24 skill vs the +18 BAB.  It is NOT the same.  Again, this gets into specifics of the mechanics and how the two systems are set up.  I won't do that.  Suffice it to say, it is much easier for a DND character to get those attacks than the Alternity character.btw, as a side note, Alternity does a much better job of time, if you ask me.  In DND, playing through several modules and tracking time religously, I think character advance from 1st to 20th in about six game months.  In Alternity, there is a better feeling of advancement taking time.  Yes, that is sometimes frustrating.  Yes, that isn't necessarily fun.  It is easier to speed up progression though to give a feeling of progress than it is to justify slowing it down.  That's me, though.As for armor, hmmm.  Again, I am not sure you understand.  While I like your idea that hit points could mean something, the base system doesn't have any definitions for them other than damage the character can take.  (In other words, as the system is, hit points do represent damage a character can take.  They are *not* VP/WPs of SW at this point.)  Also, the statistics aren't the same between the games, so I am not sure those are relevant.  In your example with the body tank, which would hopefully be used by a high level character, his AC isn't 45.  It might be less due to no DEX but it isn't 45.  In fact, there is no AC so it is tough to say.  It is the skill of the shooter that determines the hit at all levels of play.  THAT'S WHY ITEMS ARE SO IMPORTANT IN DND!  In Alternity, you might always have the same type of non magical armor for the entire game.  (Especially non combat types.)  And, it will be just as effective later as it was in the beginning.  In DND, it is assumed that the character's AC will have increased with level.  Again, do what you want.  I prefer armor as DR because that is what it is made to do.  It also makes combat less appealing when you could die at any point (12th vs 2nd level) rather than being able to shrug off any combat.  I think combat should be less appealing but that is me.  Yes, descriptions can be used but the definitions of the wound damage in Alternity makes it easier to do.  What does 20 points of damage mean?  You don't know without knowing the level of the character, his class, his CON, etc.  In Alternity, 3 points of stun means bruise damage.  It won't kill anyone probably won't knock anyone out but it has meaning.  Two points of wound damage means a good cut or some such with bleeding.  Again, intrinsic meaning without knowing anything else about the character.  A point of mortal damage means something.  The character is dying unless they can get help but they probably have a while before this happens.  Also, Alternity character are affected by damage as they don't fight as well.  In DND, they fight at full ability until 0 HPs.  Okay, this is already too long.  Let me sum up.  DND has some excellent points.  Perhaps in 4E or with house rules from the other good d20 supplements we can get a little more realism and keep most of the simplicity of DND.  If I need a better system then DND, I go to Alternity.  It has it all.  Complex skill checks, classes, heroic characters, wound points that don't allow easy instant death, good integrated magic system and many other good things.  Don't get me wrong.  The last time I played Alternity, I almost brought over some good aspects of DND that I like.  (Most notably initiative because combat is MUCH faster when you don't roll initiative every round!)Thanks for reading!  Good discussion!edg</blockquote>

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