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<blockquote data-quote="vturlough" data-source="post: 230840" data-attributes="member: 3268">For further discussionPsion:&nbsp; Again, I meant no offense.&nbsp; (You also misquoted me by leaving out the rest.)&nbsp; If I so offended, I apologize.*finds the soap box and stand on it*Cinematic combat?&nbsp; Since when is calling out numbers cinematic?&nbsp; Cinematic is being able to describe the combat and translate that into damage.&nbsp; As you seemed to agree with me that HPs have no meaning, how can you translate anything into game terms?&nbsp; For example, translate, &quot;The orc barbarian swings with his axe and manages to hit you in the side.&nbsp; You feel the breath slammed out of you and the beginnings of nasty bruise but fortunately your armor stops it from breaking ribs or slicing through you.&quot; into HP damage.&nbsp; Into d20 damage, for that matter.&nbsp; Since I started this already, in Alternity, you could do it.&nbsp; He hit for some wound damage and stun but no mortal.&nbsp; Probably only one or two points wound (after armor reduction) damage with double that for stun (secondary) damage.&nbsp; Done.&nbsp; Alternity handled that statement and turned it into game terms.&nbsp; DND, and d20, cannot.I do want a heroic game.&nbsp; I am not advocating that it should be easy for characters to die.&nbsp; I am just arguing for realistic heroism, which does exist.&nbsp; Babylon 5 was realistic heroism.&nbsp; The heroes went through a lot and lost people but were triumphant in the end.&nbsp; Buffy is another good example of that.&nbsp; X-Files.&nbsp; STar Wars.&nbsp; Dragon Heart.&nbsp; Dragon Slayer.&nbsp; All of these are great examples of that.&nbsp; Yet these movies, and the novels, never translate well to DND (d20?) because of the level of heroism that the DND system has.&nbsp; In fact, consider the novels.&nbsp; How often have we had updates to the game system because of the novels?&nbsp; How often have the authors had to go outside the rules of DND because what they wanted to do in a novel JUST WASN'T there?&nbsp; ALL THE TIME!&nbsp; The authors realize that if a person gets hit by a big freaking sword, it is going to hurt, armor or not.&nbsp; Only outer planar creatures (or DR in general) has been described as not affecting the creature.&nbsp; The DND rules don't support this.&nbsp; Again, I have seen character write up for the 15th level characters and they have ACs of 35+!&nbsp; Again, a roll of 34 is huge!&nbsp; It is a great result.&nbsp; It is certainly great for a skill check!&nbsp; Yet, not a hit, not a scratch.&nbsp; I am NOT arguing against heroic role playing.&nbsp; What I am saying is that DND doesn't do it as well as it could have.&nbsp; Alternity does do it much better.&nbsp; If there is no chance of a person dying, what is the point?&nbsp; Why does a system allow a naked 20th level (experienced) character to charge 5th level characters armed with chain and crossbows and defeat them?&nbsp; (In fact, by the CR system, it wouldn't even be an issue up until 10th level or more.&nbsp; Again, though, how much weight does the system put on items, which it does do.)&nbsp; What I am simply saying is that all of these things are not dependant on the SYSTEM.&nbsp; They are dependent on the DM and the players and what they want to do.&nbsp; If the SYSTEM doesn't allow more realism, it can never be there.&nbsp; Things can always be dropped or minimized if they already exist.&nbsp; That's the difference.&nbsp; d20, from what I have seen, does not have as many tools or choices as I would like to see.That's all I am trying to say.Sorry so quick.&nbsp; Gotta get back to work.turlough</blockquote>

[QUOTE="vturlough, post: 230840, member: 3268"] [b]For further discussion[/b] Psion: Again, I meant no offense. (You also misquoted me by leaving out the rest.) If I so offended, I apologize. *finds the soap box and stand on it* Cinematic combat? Since when is calling out numbers cinematic? Cinematic is being able to describe the combat and translate that into damage. As you seemed to agree with me that HPs have no meaning, how can you translate anything into game terms? For example, translate, "The orc barbarian swings with his axe and manages to hit you in the side. You feel the breath slammed out of you and the beginnings of nasty bruise but fortunately your armor stops it from breaking ribs or slicing through you." into HP damage. Into d20 damage, for that matter. Since I started this already, in Alternity, you could do it. He hit for some wound damage and stun but no mortal. Probably only one or two points wound (after armor reduction) damage with double that for stun (secondary) damage. Done. Alternity handled that statement and turned it into game terms. DND, and d20, cannot. I do want a heroic game. I am not advocating that it should be easy for characters to die. I am just arguing for realistic heroism, which does exist. Babylon 5 was realistic heroism. The heroes went through a lot and lost people but were triumphant in the end. Buffy is another good example of that. X-Files. STar Wars. Dragon Heart. Dragon Slayer. All of these are great examples of that. Yet these movies, and the novels, never translate well to DND (d20?) because of the level of heroism that the DND system has. In fact, consider the novels. How often have we had updates to the game system because of the novels? How often have the authors had to go outside the rules of DND because what they wanted to do in a novel JUST WASN'T there? ALL THE TIME! The authors realize that if a person gets hit by a big freaking sword, it is going to hurt, armor or not. Only outer planar creatures (or DR in general) has been described as not affecting the creature. The DND rules don't support this. Again, I have seen character write up for the 15th level characters and they have ACs of 35+! Again, a roll of 34 is huge! It is a great result. It is certainly great for a skill check! Yet, not a hit, not a scratch. I am NOT arguing against heroic role playing. What I am saying is that DND doesn't do it as well as it could have. Alternity does do it much better. If there is no chance of a person dying, what is the point? Why does a system allow a naked 20th level (experienced) character to charge 5th level characters armed with chain and crossbows and defeat them? (In fact, by the CR system, it wouldn't even be an issue up until 10th level or more. Again, though, how much weight does the system put on items, which it does do.) What I am simply saying is that all of these things are not dependant on the SYSTEM. They are dependent on the DM and the players and what they want to do. If the SYSTEM doesn't allow more realism, it can never be there. Things can always be dropped or minimized if they already exist. That's the difference. d20, from what I have seen, does not have as many tools or choices as I would like to see. That's all I am trying to say. Sorry so quick. Gotta get back to work. turlough [/QUOTE]

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