Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Rant on the 4E "Presentation"
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 3836287" data-attributes="member: 18280"><p>I'm sorry that it kills you.</p><p></p><p>Obviously, some people feel differently about how much information is in their best interests. I have been re-reading my issues of Dragon leading up to the 3.0 launch, and I am surprised by how much information there is in that source. Specific game mechanics. Specific answers to specific concerns. I understand that you want to keep people excited, but it is my experience that gamers are detail-oriented -- they are engaged by specifics, and dismiss generalities. </p><p></p><p>Your experience may be different, but your post suggests that it is not.</p><p></p><p>I think it is important to remember that a lot of folks love this game, and expressing legitimate concerns isn't crapping on you. Becoming frustrated when those legitimate concerns are not answered isn't crapping on you. IMHO, of course. There are a lot of big changes in this edition, and the more you change, the more folks are going to want to know that those changes are justified. That's human nature, AFAICT.</p><p></p><p>I am sure that most people believe that there are limits to what you can say, and that those limits come from "on high". There is an equal concern, of course, that some design goals might come from "on high" as well, and that is where the "faceless corporation" comments rear their ugly head.</p><p></p><p>I think that it is also important to remember that this industry, like all other industries, is customer-driven. WotC is "bending over backwards" to attempt to "engage and excite" its customer base prior to launching 4e. I call this publicity, advertising, and hype. If WotC gets "crapped on" for what it's providing in this department, that indicates to me that there is a problem with your promotion campaign. If your promotion campaign isn't working, changing it is more likely to solve the problem than is complaining that people aren't buying into it.</p><p></p><p>The fact that you are still playtesting so much that you cannot provide requested details, when all three books are slated for a June release, is also a cause for legitimate concern. IMHO, at least.</p><p></p><p>Worse, there are development articles that make some doubt whether or not this game is being designed for them. Mr. Mearls, for example, when talking about encounter design, seems to imaginine that 3.5 is suitable only for the use of single monsters in encounters. This flies in the face of the experience of many DMs and players, and is bound to make some concerned about how this new game will function, if our understandings of the old game is so divergent. I have the same problem with Mr. Wyatt's suggestion that adding per-encounter abilities will end the 9-9:15 adventuring day problem.</p><p></p><p>When they arise, these concerns ought to be addressed. Perhaps this was easier in the days when 3.0 was coming out, because letters to Dragon could be vetted and answered on the basis of available information. Keeping up with all of these concerns across various messageboards is a full-time job....possibly for several people. </p><p></p><p>Still, a consolidated location, open to the public without subscription, to answer these concerns would not go amiss. I mention "open to the public without subscription" because, frankly, I strongly dislike the ToS on Gleemax. Surely the lawyer(s) who wrote the OGL could write a better agreement that both protects WotC and doesn't force posters to give WotC rights to their work in perpetuity.</p><p></p><p>There is also an attitude in some comments that makes it seem as though WotC isn't listening to its customer base. Mr. Noonan's "cloudwatching" remarks are a case in point. To some people, myself included, it read as "We don't care whether you like it or not, this is what's going to happen." The obvious response to that is, "If you don't care whether I like it or not, why would I buy it?"</p><p></p><p>In short, there are many people who view certain recent developments (from ending the print magazines to perceived aspects the new edition, or even the advent of a new edition itself) as potentially good for WotC but bad for gamers (or the game) as a whole. Those folks have a legitimate reason to want to make thier voices heard, if for no other reason than that people buy products because they feel they can use them. Few people, if any, will buy a product just because doing so is good for the company who makes it.</p><p></p><p>None of this has anything to do with you as a person. None of this has anything to do with any WotC employee or designer as a person. I'm sure even the biggest naysayers would enjoy inviting you for an evening of gaming and drinks.</p><p></p><p>But 4e is a product, that WotC is trying to sell us on. I doubt very much that there is a gamer alive who doesn't hope every new product is a "must have" that transforms their gaming experience to the better. This is an audience that wants to be sold. Telling you that we are not yet sold is a service, allowing WotC to adjust its strategy, and it is a service that some of us are bending over backwards to provide.</p><p></p><p>Cheers!</p><p></p><p>RC</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 3836287, member: 18280"] I'm sorry that it kills you. Obviously, some people feel differently about how much information is in their best interests. I have been re-reading my issues of Dragon leading up to the 3.0 launch, and I am surprised by how much information there is in that source. Specific game mechanics. Specific answers to specific concerns. I understand that you want to keep people excited, but it is my experience that gamers are detail-oriented -- they are engaged by specifics, and dismiss generalities. Your experience may be different, but your post suggests that it is not. I think it is important to remember that a lot of folks love this game, and expressing legitimate concerns isn't crapping on you. Becoming frustrated when those legitimate concerns are not answered isn't crapping on you. IMHO, of course. There are a lot of big changes in this edition, and the more you change, the more folks are going to want to know that those changes are justified. That's human nature, AFAICT. I am sure that most people believe that there are limits to what you can say, and that those limits come from "on high". There is an equal concern, of course, that some design goals might come from "on high" as well, and that is where the "faceless corporation" comments rear their ugly head. I think that it is also important to remember that this industry, like all other industries, is customer-driven. WotC is "bending over backwards" to attempt to "engage and excite" its customer base prior to launching 4e. I call this publicity, advertising, and hype. If WotC gets "crapped on" for what it's providing in this department, that indicates to me that there is a problem with your promotion campaign. If your promotion campaign isn't working, changing it is more likely to solve the problem than is complaining that people aren't buying into it. The fact that you are still playtesting so much that you cannot provide requested details, when all three books are slated for a June release, is also a cause for legitimate concern. IMHO, at least. Worse, there are development articles that make some doubt whether or not this game is being designed for them. Mr. Mearls, for example, when talking about encounter design, seems to imaginine that 3.5 is suitable only for the use of single monsters in encounters. This flies in the face of the experience of many DMs and players, and is bound to make some concerned about how this new game will function, if our understandings of the old game is so divergent. I have the same problem with Mr. Wyatt's suggestion that adding per-encounter abilities will end the 9-9:15 adventuring day problem. When they arise, these concerns ought to be addressed. Perhaps this was easier in the days when 3.0 was coming out, because letters to Dragon could be vetted and answered on the basis of available information. Keeping up with all of these concerns across various messageboards is a full-time job....possibly for several people. Still, a consolidated location, open to the public without subscription, to answer these concerns would not go amiss. I mention "open to the public without subscription" because, frankly, I strongly dislike the ToS on Gleemax. Surely the lawyer(s) who wrote the OGL could write a better agreement that both protects WotC and doesn't force posters to give WotC rights to their work in perpetuity. There is also an attitude in some comments that makes it seem as though WotC isn't listening to its customer base. Mr. Noonan's "cloudwatching" remarks are a case in point. To some people, myself included, it read as "We don't care whether you like it or not, this is what's going to happen." The obvious response to that is, "If you don't care whether I like it or not, why would I buy it?" In short, there are many people who view certain recent developments (from ending the print magazines to perceived aspects the new edition, or even the advent of a new edition itself) as potentially good for WotC but bad for gamers (or the game) as a whole. Those folks have a legitimate reason to want to make thier voices heard, if for no other reason than that people buy products because they feel they can use them. Few people, if any, will buy a product just because doing so is good for the company who makes it. None of this has anything to do with you as a person. None of this has anything to do with any WotC employee or designer as a person. I'm sure even the biggest naysayers would enjoy inviting you for an evening of gaming and drinks. But 4e is a product, that WotC is trying to sell us on. I doubt very much that there is a gamer alive who doesn't hope every new product is a "must have" that transforms their gaming experience to the better. This is an audience that wants to be sold. Telling you that we are not yet sold is a service, allowing WotC to adjust its strategy, and it is a service that some of us are bending over backwards to provide. Cheers! RC [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Rant on the 4E "Presentation"
Top