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<blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 3853960" data-attributes="member: 54877">No, I answered you well enough.&nbsp; The concept that &quot;progress is good&quot; has a meaning consistent with Odhanan's commentary, but not consistent with your definition of the concept as, &quot;change can be for the better&quot;.&nbsp; That may be your definition of progress, but it isn't what the term has historically meant, in this context.&nbsp; The historical version is more along the lines of &quot;inevitable progress is good.&quot;&nbsp; As such, your version is a strawman answer to what Odhanan had to say.&nbsp; You can play Humpty Dumpty all you want, this being the internet, but you didn't answer his points.4E will only be a success, any kind of success, to the degree that the designers ignore the historical concept of inevitable progress, but rather work on improving the game in some way that makes sense to them.&nbsp; This will almost assuredly result in a game that is superior, in some fashion, to some people.&nbsp; It is likely to also result in a game that is inferior in some fashion, to some other people.&nbsp; It can't help but do so.&nbsp; The open question is one of degrees.&nbsp; How many people?&nbsp; How superior and inferior?&nbsp; In what ways, and are they important?I'm always amused by citing the latest things as examples of the superiority of progress (in the historical, inevitable sense, in case there is any confusion on that point).&nbsp; Generally, since the first caveman took rock to cave wall, people have learned to communicate in faster and more efficient ways.&nbsp; This is a net good, I admit.&nbsp; In all that time, however, no one has really come up with a way, when Og writes on the latest sabre tooth tiger evasion techniques, of stopping Gogg from calling Og a booger-brain.&nbsp; To do that, you'd have to change Gogg himself, not his method of communication. I don't see that happening, anymore than I see 4E changing the nature of gamers.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Crazy Jerome, post: 3853960, member: 54877"] No, I answered you well enough. The concept that "progress is good" has a meaning consistent with Odhanan's commentary, but not consistent with your definition of the concept as, "change can be for the better". That may be your definition of progress, but it isn't what the term has historically meant, in this context. The historical version is more along the lines of "inevitable progress is good." As such, your version is a strawman answer to what Odhanan had to say. You can play Humpty Dumpty all you want, this being the internet, but you didn't answer his points. 4E will only be a success, any kind of success, to the degree that the designers ignore the historical concept of inevitable progress, but rather work on improving the game in some way that makes sense to them. This will almost assuredly result in a game that is superior, in some fashion, to some people. It is likely to also result in a game that is inferior in some fashion, to some other people. It can't help but do so. The open question is one of degrees. How many people? How superior and inferior? In what ways, and are they important? I'm always amused by citing the latest things as examples of the superiority of progress (in the historical, inevitable sense, in case there is any confusion on that point). Generally, since the first caveman took rock to cave wall, people have learned to communicate in faster and more efficient ways. This is a net good, I admit. In all that time, however, no one has really come up with a way, when Og writes on the latest sabre tooth tiger evasion techniques, of stopping Gogg from calling Og a booger-brain. To do that, you'd have to change Gogg himself, not his method of communication. I don't see that happening, anymore than I see 4E changing the nature of gamers. :D [/QUOTE]

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