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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Shemeska" data-source="post: 2440090" data-attributes="member: 11697">At least in my mind there's a difference (if at times a tenuous one) between Orcus/Tenebrous and the details surrounding him versus the rather bland and flavorless lichfiend template. Orcus/Tenebrous was some unique undead being, really a fluke of nature and not some standard occurance by any measure. The Visages that Pants cited before are also his creations during that period.I don't have a big problem with undead fiends, but for a variety of reasons they don't make sense outside of being the products of rare and unique circumstances. Lich fiends make little sense as the fiend's soul and body are the exact same thing with no duality present between the two. How is it going to have a phylactery holding its soul if there isn't one seperate from its body? Secondly, what's the rationale for a fiend to become a lich? It's already immortal, and let's face it, escaping death from old age is the primary reason liches become what they are, it's a product of a mortal's fear of death. A fiend doesn't have that, and they all believe in the utter supremacy of their alignment, and the perfection of their state of being. A lich fiend makes little sense in those ways; it seems silly more than a cool idea.The approach taken with the 'lichfiend' was less a unique and cool new idea, and more a seeming case of 'undead are evil and kewl. Fiends are evil and kewl. An undead fiend would just be uber kewl then!'. Outside of some bizarre circumstance, which I can't immediately rationalize, it just seems forced and awkward.Undead elementals are similar, though the ones presented in Libris Mortis are effectively just the negative touched quasielementals given a name change and a different conceptualization. Had they called them negative quasielementals and talked about the nature of those elementals and their relation to negative energy it would have been cool and internally consistant w/ the lore on elementals and negative energy etc. Instead we got something that again seemed forced and ill conceived, though heavily derived from those previous creatures, just lacking the explanations that made them seem plausible.</blockquote>

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