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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9651990" data-attributes="member: 6790260">And I'm saying it's not objective. That's...the whole point.Pre-established is no more nor less objective than any other approach. It may or may not even be independent in any of the ways folks would like it to be. Instead, it is constructed to give that feeling--even when the feeling isn't actually representative.Contrast this with the way sandbox-y playstyles, to varying degrees, prioritize agency. Merely feeling like one has agency isn't enough--as noted, the &quot;invisible railroad&quot; is a well-establshed concept. That feeling needs to be backed up by actually having the believed quantity of agency.I don't think folks who are talking about &quot;objectivity&quot; and &quot;independence&quot; etc. are making that distinction, between what they believe to be objectivity/independence/etc. and what is actually objective and independent--and the fluidity of that gap between belief and actuality matters a lot for the (many) places this conversation has bogged down.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9651990, member: 6790260"] And I'm saying it's not objective. That's...the whole point. Pre-established is no more nor less objective than any other approach. It may or may not even be independent in any of the ways folks would like it to be. Instead, it is constructed to give that feeling--even when the feeling isn't actually representative. Contrast this with the way sandbox-y playstyles, to varying degrees, prioritize [I]agency[/I]. Merely feeling like one has agency isn't enough--as noted, the "invisible railroad" is a well-establshed concept. That feeling needs to be backed up by actually having the believed quantity of agency. I don't think folks who are talking about "objectivity" and "independence" etc. are making that distinction, between what they [I]believe[/I] to be objectivity/independence/etc. and what is [I]actually[/I] objective and independent--and the fluidity of that gap between belief and actuality matters a lot for the (many) places this conversation has bogged down. [/QUOTE]

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