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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Bedrockgames" data-source="post: 9661696" data-attributes="member: 85555">No, this isn’t just challenging how we think play works, it is actually antagonistic, something we have been trying to make clear. And it is literally requiring a redefinition of the term. I think there is a lot of room to quibble about what agency means, but the moment you assert agency doesn’t have to do with control of your character’s thoughts and actions if that loss is a product of fair game play, I think you have veered into “D&D isn’t a roleplaying game” territory of argumentationAnd I am not saying he is diminishing my agency, I am saying he is treating agency as a zero sum discussion across styles: where he is building up agency in one style by taking away from the level of agency peopke think exists in anotherAgain, this is where context and agency matterAlso here I am not saying that the way sandbox handles agency is going to be satisfactory to everyone. I am just saying it is a high agency form of play. We can have a conversation that includes the things you guys are talking about and try to suss out why those appeal to your sense of agency and might be called high agency for different reasons. That might be productive. Fighting over agency as an objective thing sandbox or Hawkeye’s ‘player driven’ style had more of is just going to be the discussion equivalent of smashing our heads against a red brick wall again and again.Also you keep accusing people of having blinders and I think this is an unfair characterization. People understand that games can work differently. Many of us have played different kinds of games where control of play has a different arrangement than say D&D. Again, I mentioned Hillfolk which I know annoys people but the point is you can narrate stuff into existence in the world as part of dialogue (and there are also meta resources and other features of play that can strengthen or limit this). To me that doesn’t feel like an increase in agency because I tend to see agency more as related to my characters ability to take actions in the word not my ability as a player to control the world or the game. For me the selling point of Hillfolk is its immersive drama, not agency. That doesn’t mean it isn’t enhancing agency for someone else, for whom that stuff is very important. I think there is plenty of room to talk about that. I can see how someone might find BW or PbtA to give them greater agency because for them agency and system-game play are so intertwined. But for me these games are not increasing agency. Because to me agency has always simply meant, if I want to go north and negotiate a peace with the goblin king instead of engaging the adventure he planned in Funkytown, I can do that and he won’t obstruct me, he will even lean into it</blockquote>

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