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<blockquote data-quote="Pedantic" data-source="post: 9679958" data-attributes="member: 6690965">I'm doing no such thing. I'm pointing out a consequence of fail forward design, a thing it cannot do, not offering advice on how a game featuring it should be played. If you don't care about evaluating the quality of the players decisions, it does not matter. Getting into what &quot;winning&quot; is in general and in an RPG specifically feels like a much bigger discussion, but it roughly maps to the evaluation of goals thing I keep talking about. Taking it at face value, I don't really care if the players win or not. What I'm driving at is that players should be trying to win, and that should look different than players trying to lose or not being concerned either way. I'm not laboring under some misapprehension about the purpose of these mechanics. I'm saying &quot;I have this other purpose within the umbrella of playing an RPG and this mechanic cannot serve it, and here is why.&quot;That's a totally different design question, solved a totally different way. I don't find Lanefan's answer &quot;players get to roll once&quot; particularly good, but it does meet that design brief. I'd point towards take 10/20 earlier as a better model, and I'd tend towards more absolute effects that don't have a dice component at all if I were building from scratch.If &quot;winning&quot; is a question of a single die roll, the design is flawed in a whole new way.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Pedantic, post: 9679958, member: 6690965"] I'm doing no such thing. I'm pointing out a consequence of fail forward design, a thing it cannot do, not offering advice on how a game featuring it should be played. If you don't care about evaluating the quality of the players decisions, it does not matter. Getting into what "winning" is in general and in an RPG specifically feels like a much bigger discussion, but it roughly maps to the evaluation of goals thing I keep talking about. Taking it at face value, I don't really care if the players win or not. What I'm driving at is that players should be trying to win, and that should look different than players trying to lose or not being concerned either way. I'm not laboring under some misapprehension about the purpose of these mechanics. I'm saying "I have this other purpose within the umbrella of playing an RPG and this mechanic cannot serve it, and here is why." That's a totally different design question, solved a totally different way. I don't find Lanefan's answer "players get to roll once" particularly good, but it does meet that design brief. I'd point towards take 10/20 earlier as a better model, and I'd tend towards more absolute effects that don't have a dice component at all if I were building from scratch. If "winning" is a question of a single die roll, the design is flawed in a whole new way. [/QUOTE]

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