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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Pedantic" data-source="post: 9700333" data-attributes="member: 6690965">Right, this is why I've found the argument from gameplay more compelling. Consequences are unknowable to the player unless you include negotiation, and negotiation is generally unpleasant and bad gameplay (for the specific understanding of game-as-game). Plus, there are implications if you are maintaining an established world and you allow player input to consequences. If you present "someone hears you" as a possible complication and you open it up for negotiation there must be someone who can hear you present, even if "they hear you" is ruled out in negotiation in favor of "your lockpick breaks," or it would have been illegitimate to propose that as a consequence in the first place. Now the player has new information, and I shudder at the incentives the possibility of getting information that way creates.The argument from simulation requires you to sign up for more things. I'm not hostile to "the GM's job is to create and maintain a fictional world running on their brain," but if you're not concerned about the gameplay implications, I'm not sure why it would matter precisely when they do any particular part of that. What's the harm in using the player's dice rolls in decision making, instead of any other arbitrary input? I think the case has to come down to immersion, and a particular kind thereof that's reliant on the GM's processes being entirely opaque. My sense is that some players need to believe the person of the GM with full knowledge of the world that's relating facts about the world to them is distinct from the entity that's populating that world in the first place.A desire I support, because a player necessarily can't have any agency if those two were entirely conflated, but I don't understand if your concern is not in players being able to express agency and try to control the board state.</blockquote>

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