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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9715140" data-attributes="member: 42582">Nor are many of the words that the players speak, like "I [as my PC] turn around." No in the fiction hears those words spoken.As I posted not far upthread, this is a recurring source of confusion and tension in RPGing, when the GM asks the player "Did you really say that?"The stuff that is represented might be part of the fiction, sure. The act of representation typically isn't, though - as per the example of the player saying, as their PC, "I turn around".What is part of the fiction is the turning around, not the act of saying "I turn around".Here I think we part ways. Because I agree that, speaking accurately, the mechanics are not diegetic. But isn't "diegetic narrative" a tautology? Or very close to one at least.I think I agree with this. But then I want to restate your points about the climb check - which basically I agree with - like this: the climb check isn't representational. And so it does not introduce elements into the narrative (that is, into the diegesis). As per my post somewhere not too far upthread, it's like the film cutting from the character getting ready to climb, to a scene where the sweating, red-faced character pulls themself over the top of the cliff (success) or to a scene of the character tumbling down the cliff to their doom (failure).This is why I liked your map and puzzle square examples: because these are ones where we don't even need to talk about representation. What the players are doing (poring over the map or the puzzle) is exactly what the characters are doing.But if we talk about representation, we at least need the mechanics to map to descriptions of processes or events. The Rolemaster Move/Manoeuvre table does a bit of this - eg, here are some of the failure entries, in increasing degree of seriousness:Fail to act Freeze for 2 rounds Fall. Sprain ankle. You are -30. +15 hits Fall. Knock yourself out. You are out for 30 rounds. +10 hitsThis still doesn't tell us exactly what went wrong for the character, but it does provide descriptions of whether they choked at the outset, or tumbled down the cliff.TL;DR - I don't think we are disagreeing that much over the basic points at issue.</blockquote>

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