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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 9715462" data-attributes="member: 23751">More False Equivalence from you.  A map is not intricately intertwined with the territory such that the territory cannot exist without it.And now a Strawman built on your False Equivalence that you attribute to me.  My argument is not "the map is the territory."Even more False Equivalence!  Three for three now.A proper analogy would be the finish on the pipe that the smoker is experiencing, but does not know contains a cork lining.  He is experiencing that cork lining within his smoking experience, but is unaware of its presence and he cannot smoke that pipe without the cork interior being there.Then you can successfully climb without the using the climb check mechanics after the DM has called for their inclusion, right?  If the climb check is just a picture of the climbing or a map of the climbing territory, then the required mechanics are not required as part of the climb, right?  Because the map and the picture are not required.  They are ONLY representations.If you cannot make the climb without the climb mechanics, then they go beyond being a mere representation of the climb and become part of it like the cork lining in the pipe.If you have to alter my argument via False Equivalences in order to argue against it, perhaps stop and consider that you might be wrong about this. Open your mind to what I am saying.</blockquote>