NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 9715760" data-attributes="member: 22779">Let me try this from a different direction.In Ironsworn (sorry to bring this up again, but, it fits my example well and ... well... I just really like the system <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />) there is a mechanic called Ask the Oracle.  What happens is when you get a result but you are unsure exactly how that result was achieved, you Ask the Oracle - a series of yes/no questions that may be weighted (instead of 50/50, you could make it 75/25 yes/no) at the DM's prerogative to generate a seed of an idea.So, in play, the characters fail to reach a waypoint while traveling from A to B.  The DM knows that the party is traveling through a magical forest of the elves, but, doesn't really have an idea about why the characters failed.  So, Ask the Oracle - Is the problem magical (yes), is it a monster (no), is it a trap (yes) - ahhh, ok, now I've got enough of an idea seed to build a narrative.  Cool.  No problems.Now, no one is going to claim that this mechanic is simulationist or diegetic.  At least I don't think anyone would.  This is simply a mechanic that spurs creativity.  That's what it's there for.  ((Plus, Ironsworn being primararily a solo-RPG, needs some way to give the player a way to move forward that doesn't solely rely on that solo player))  No problem.  My question is, what's the difference between Ask the Oracle and Ask the DM?  After all, in both cases, the DM in question is still using the setting and the "logic" of the world to create a narrative.  I ask "Is the problem magical" because the character is traveling in a magical forest.   The trap question is inspired by the fact that elves don't like visitors.  So, the narrative is very much informed by the setting.  But, again, none of it is even remotely simulationist.  Even if the results are ultimately diegetic (there really IS a magical trap in the forest in the game world) the means of creating that diegetic element isn't remotely diegetic.  When a DM does the same thing - plonks down a magical trap that causes misdirection while traveling through the magical woods, why does it suddenly become simulationist?  The method for creating that magical trap had nothing to do with any in game process.  But, if the party got lost and the DM decided that the party got lost because of a magical trap in the magical forest, people are claiming that the mechanics are simulationist because the party got lost using the skill system of the game.  In 5e D&D, that would likely be the result of a failed Survival check.  Or is the DM forbidden from adding a magical trap in the magical forest in response to a failed check?  If the DM is forbidden from doing that, why?  What about the mechanics says that the DM must not add a magical trap in a magical forest?  Which brings me back to my original point.  To me, neither Ask the Oracle nor Ask the DM is simulationist or Diegetic.  In order for the system to be either sim or diegetic, that system MUST provide information to guide the narration of the result.  Without that guidance, the system cannot be simulationist.</blockquote>

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