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[rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.
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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 9717573" data-attributes="member: 71699"><p>Yes, I think it is a weakness of process-simulation too, but it's not unanswerable. Game designers and consumers of their texts determine what is "significant", which may be influenced by acquired knowledge about their subject.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Upthread I wrote that the Cortex System satisfies definitions of process-simulation. In order to see what might refute that, I'm entertaining the notion that processes can be both para-diegetic and diegetical.</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">We've already discussed the <strong>diegetical </strong>character of game mechanics. As near as I can make out, it means that on deconstructing the text I can associate some abundance of elements with things I deem to be significant in the imagined world. I accept what I take to be the sense of [USER=7025577]@Enrahim[/USER]'s proposal, which includes that the procedural chains from inputs to outputs have such associations and follow and ideally enhance my appreciation of the causal chains I understand (or learn) to be associated with the phenomena.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Para-diegetic</strong> is a term I'm coining to mean that working the processes around the table puts me in mind or gives me the feeling of whatever I'm pretending happens in the imagined world. Thus it is possible to find noetic satisfaction in the para-diegetic qualities of a game mechanic. I think some mechanics will more strongly achieve that than others, remembering always that this is a quality <em>of the process of enacting the mechanic around the table</em>. It is not about any effects doing so might have on play beyond that. Notwithstanding that the diegetical qualities of a game mechanic would presumably encourage experiencing its para-diegetic qualities, and some posters have testified to these qualities driving certain played-experiences.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p>Process-simulation can seem to focus on what I discern in the text rather than played-experiences. I gave the example of Redbook C&S to support that notion. It's not that I think folk who enjoy process-simulation fail to have simulative-experiences. Rather I think process-simulation is just one account of how such experiences may be achieved. My disagreements in that regard are that I find it is not the only account. I observe that the focus on the game mechanics text can fall flat for many players, who find that more detailed text <em>is not productive of simualtive-experiences in play</em> (and they are able to cite various shortfalls, such as the inability of designers to pay the cost of covering all imaginable circumstances and outcomes, or players to enact them.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 9717573, member: 71699"] Yes, I think it is a weakness of process-simulation too, but it's not unanswerable. Game designers and consumers of their texts determine what is "significant", which may be influenced by acquired knowledge about their subject. Upthread I wrote that the Cortex System satisfies definitions of process-simulation. In order to see what might refute that, I'm entertaining the notion that processes can be both para-diegetic and diegetical. [INDENT]We've already discussed the [B]diegetical [/B]character of game mechanics. As near as I can make out, it means that on deconstructing the text I can associate some abundance of elements with things I deem to be significant in the imagined world. I accept what I take to be the sense of [USER=7025577]@Enrahim[/USER]'s proposal, which includes that the procedural chains from inputs to outputs have such associations and follow and ideally enhance my appreciation of the causal chains I understand (or learn) to be associated with the phenomena.[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT][B]Para-diegetic[/B] is a term I'm coining to mean that working the processes around the table puts me in mind or gives me the feeling of whatever I'm pretending happens in the imagined world. Thus it is possible to find noetic satisfaction in the para-diegetic qualities of a game mechanic. I think some mechanics will more strongly achieve that than others, remembering always that this is a quality [I]of the process of enacting the mechanic around the table[/I]. It is not about any effects doing so might have on play beyond that. Notwithstanding that the diegetical qualities of a game mechanic would presumably encourage experiencing its para-diegetic qualities, and some posters have testified to these qualities driving certain played-experiences.[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] Process-simulation can seem to focus on what I discern in the text rather than played-experiences. I gave the example of Redbook C&S to support that notion. It's not that I think folk who enjoy process-simulation fail to have simulative-experiences. Rather I think process-simulation is just one account of how such experiences may be achieved. My disagreements in that regard are that I find it is not the only account. I observe that the focus on the game mechanics text can fall flat for many players, who find that more detailed text [I]is not productive of simualtive-experiences in play[/I] (and they are able to cite various shortfalls, such as the inability of designers to pay the cost of covering all imaginable circumstances and outcomes, or players to enact them.) [/QUOTE]
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[rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.
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