Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
[rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9719182" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>As I posted not very far upthread:</p><p></p><p>You only get a "conflict with sim" if you insist that the player is not allowed to introduce or prompt, but rather must only discover (from the GM) backstory elements.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If you are asking "Is there an example of typical narrativist play which mostly consists in the players declaring actions for their PCs that will prompt the GM to narrate backstory elements, so that the players can then manipulate those elements to overcome challenges so as to achieve goals", I think the answer is "no". Because that is, by definition, not going to be narrativist play.</p><p></p><p>Way upthread there was some discussion of <a href="https://mightyatom.blogspot.com/2010/10/apocalypse-world-crossing-line.html" target="_blank">this from John Harper about Apocalypse World</a>. You will see that it illustrates that's games use of "asking questions":</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">In Apocalypse World, the players are in charge of their characters. What they say, what they do; what they feel, think, and believe; what they did in their past. The MC is in charge of the world: the environment, the NPCs, the weather, the psychic maelstrom.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Sometimes, the players say things that get very close to the line. Usually this happens when the MC asks a leading question.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>MC: "Nero, what do the slave traders use for barter?"</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Player: "Oh man, those [freaks]? They use human ears."</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">That's a case of the player authoring part of the world outside their character, however -- and this is critical -- they do it from within their character's experience and frame of reference. When Nero answers that question, he's telling something he knows about the world.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Compare that exchange with this one, which is crossing the line:</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>MC: "Okay, Nero, so you get the box of barter away from the slave traders and haul into the back of the truck."</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Player: "Cool. I open it up."</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>MC: "Okay. What do you see when you open it?"</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Player: "Um... uh, a bunch of severed fingers?"</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">See the difference? In the first case, the MC is addressing the character and asking about some knowledge he has. In the second case, the MC is fully turning over authorship of the world in-the-moment to the player, which is not part of the player role in AW.</p><p></p><p>The rules for authority over backstory/setting in that game are pretty clear (from p 109):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">Apocalypse World divvies the conversation up in a strict and pretty traditional way. The players’ job is to say what their characters say and undertake to do, first and exclusively; to say what their characters think, feel and remember, also exclusively; and to answer your questions about their characters’ lives and surroundings. Your job as MC is to say everything else: everything about the world, and what everyone in the whole damned world says and does except the players’ characters.</p><p></p><p>I assume, though, that you will say that a simulationist and immersive approach to play requires the players to ask the GM what their PCs know and remember and think is a plausible conjecture relative to setting and backstory.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 9719182, member: 42582"] As I posted not very far upthread: You only get a "conflict with sim" if you insist that the player is not allowed to introduce or prompt, but rather must only discover (from the GM) backstory elements. If you are asking "Is there an example of typical narrativist play which mostly consists in the players declaring actions for their PCs that will prompt the GM to narrate backstory elements, so that the players can then manipulate those elements to overcome challenges so as to achieve goals", I think the answer is "no". Because that is, by definition, not going to be narrativist play. Way upthread there was some discussion of [url=https://mightyatom.blogspot.com/2010/10/apocalypse-world-crossing-line.html]this from John Harper about Apocalypse World[/url]. You will see that it illustrates that's games use of "asking questions": [indent]In Apocalypse World, the players are in charge of their characters. What they say, what they do; what they feel, think, and believe; what they did in their past. The MC is in charge of the world: the environment, the NPCs, the weather, the psychic maelstrom. Sometimes, the players say things that get very close to the line. Usually this happens when the MC asks a leading question. [I]MC: "Nero, what do the slave traders use for barter?" Player: "Oh man, those [freaks]? They use human ears."[/I] That's a case of the player authoring part of the world outside their character, however -- and this is critical -- they do it from within their character's experience and frame of reference. When Nero answers that question, he's telling something he knows about the world. Compare that exchange with this one, which is crossing the line: [I]MC: "Okay, Nero, so you get the box of barter away from the slave traders and haul into the back of the truck." Player: "Cool. I open it up." MC: "Okay. What do you see when you open it?" Player: "Um... uh, a bunch of severed fingers?"[/I] See the difference? In the first case, the MC is addressing the character and asking about some knowledge he has. In the second case, the MC is fully turning over authorship of the world in-the-moment to the player, which is not part of the player role in AW.[/indent] The rules for authority over backstory/setting in that game are pretty clear (from p 109): [indent]Apocalypse World divvies the conversation up in a strict and pretty traditional way. The players’ job is to say what their characters say and undertake to do, first and exclusively; to say what their characters think, feel and remember, also exclusively; and to answer your questions about their characters’ lives and surroundings. Your job as MC is to say everything else: everything about the world, and what everyone in the whole damned world says and does except the players’ characters.[/indent] I assume, though, that you will say that a simulationist and immersive approach to play requires the players to ask the GM what their PCs know and remember and think is a plausible conjecture relative to setting and backstory. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
[rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.
Top