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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 9721074" data-attributes="member: 71699">Assessing the <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/climb.htm" target="_blank">3.5e climb rules</a> against the concepts of <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/rant-the-conservatism-of-d-d-fans-is-exhausting.712674/post-9719929" target="_blank">association, entrainment and concomittance</a> requires understanding <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm" target="_blank">how skills are used in 3.5e</a>. I'll excerpt a few parts to give the rough idea (if you already know how they work, skip the spoiler)[SPOILER="3.5 skill usage"][Players declare that their] Characters try to accomplish tasks --> DM determines how difficult those are --> dice determine success or failure. A skill check takes into account training (skill rank), natural talent (ability modifier), and luck (the die roll). To make a check, roll 1d20 and add the appropriate modifiers. The higher, the better. A natural 20 isn’t an automatic success, and a natural 1 isn’t an automatic failure. Some checks are made against a Difficulty Class (DC). The DC is a number that you must equal or beat to succeed, usually ranging from 0 to 30 in 5-point increments. The skill modifier incorporates the character’s ranks in that skill and the ability modifier for that skill’s key ability, plus any other miscellaneous modifiers that may apply, including racial bonuses and armor check penalties. Situation can make a skill easier or harder to use, resulting in a bonus or penalty to the modifier or a change to the DC. Each rank is a +1 modifier and your maximum ranks is level + 3 if the skill is listed for your class, or half that if not. About half the core classes have climb on their skill list. In general, you can try a check again if you fail, and you can keep trying indefinitely. Some checks, especially with skills, have consequences for failure that must be taken into account. When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. When you have plenty of time, are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. You can help another character by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher, the character you are helping gets a +2 bonus, as per the rule for favorable conditions. (You can’t take 10 to help another.) In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help. When failure can cause additional difficulty, a check that fails by 5 or more causes that to occur. Skills that carry an additional risk on a failed check include Climb (fall). Climbing is part of movement, so it’s generally part of a <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#moveActions" target="_blank">move action</a> With a successful check, you can advance up, down, or across a slope, a wall, or some other steep incline (or even a ceiling with handholds) at one-quarter your normal speed (medium characters usually have speed 30', small have speed 20', you can use your standard action to move twice in a round, armor worn can reduce speed, e.g. full plate makes it 20' and 15' respectively.)[/SPOILER]3.5e climb contains numerous associations with diegetic facts, includingDC is associated with specified surfaces and activities modifiers are associated with Strength, training (both depth, via ranks, and breadth, via synergies), rope use, climbers kits, halfling race, lizard familiars, athletics feat Measuring entrainment entails comparing rolling dice and adding and comparing numbers, with a heavily physical activity, but I think there are some features that encourage the pretence activities like climbing faster, making your own holds, hauling others upward, catching falling characters, spellcasting and fighting either apply modifiers or trigger special climb checksseparate checks for each move action that includes climbing: a 150' cliff could take ten checks (one quarter of 60' using your move and standard action, assuming your DM doesn't count moving as a standard action as a separate move.) that often plays out by sending the best climber up the wall and they place ropes for everyone else I suspect that the shortness of climb times discourages the pretence, e.g. 1 minute for that cliff, and possibly the way the odds work outmultiple checks make the odds of failing exponential [SPOILER="Example impact of multiple rolls"]a natural rock wall is DC 25 (but they fall only if they miss DC 20); a 6th-level Fighter could have +9 ranks in climb, in armor they might suffer a check penalty of -5, their Strength could give them a +3 to +4 modifier, a climbers kit gives +2; for various reasons it's unlikely they have Athletics or a skill synergy they can take 10 if not threatened or distracted (but not 20 because climb has a penalty for failure) which makes that climb quite likely automatically successful under pressure (e.g. pursuers with bows) falling is a near-certainty until much higher level[/SPOILER]I have found in my own experience and would predict for others that the entrainment will be volatile... it depends on what features are surfaced as a result of situation and resolution, and whether anyone notices the short climb times. Thus I believe concommitance is available as a result of the associations and entrainment, albeit it will occasionally shatter (a problem all through 3.5e skill mechanics.)I wonder if you would agree, [USER=6690965]@Pedantic[/USER] ?</blockquote>

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