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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 401003" data-attributes="member: 3146">Hmm. Should I assume that "virtual two weapon fighting and ambidexterity" are subject to the ranger's light armor and "fights as if" restrictions?That being said, your feats are very very powerful (particularly Expert Ambidexterity). When you add the granting of virtual TWF to fighters as well as rangers, I think you've actually reduced the opportunity cost of the feats and consequently more emphasis has to be placed upon the prerequisites for them.Also, are these fighter bonus feats? That can make a big difference.With that in mind, let's see how characters might be constructed with these rules.The Double Sword Fighter (32 points)Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 81. Power Attack, Cleave, Expertise2. Exotic Weapon: Double Sword, virtual TWF, Ambidex3. Expert Ambidexterity4. Weapon Specialization: double sword6. Combat Reflexes, Twin Attack8. Improved Critical: Double Sword9. Improved TWF10. Two Weapon Defense12. Power Critical: double sword, Iron Will14. Perfect Two Weapon FightingAlternately, this character could dish out even more damage by switching double sword proficiency for bastard sword and wield paired bastard swords. There's really no reason not to when his off hand weapon is always considered light. . . .The Sword and shield dual wield (32 points)Stats as above1. Expertise, Exotic Weapon: Dwarven Waraxe, Power Attack2. Shield Expert, Virtual TWF3. Expert Ambidexterity4. Two Weapon Defense6. Combat Reflexes, Twin attack8. Improved Shield Bash9. Shield Charge10. Improved Crit: Dwarven Waraxe12. Power Crit: Dwarven Waraxe, cleave14. Perfect TWFThe Greatsword and armor spikes Fighter (32 points)Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 81. Power Attack, Expertise, Weapon Focus: Greatsword2. Two Handed Power Strike, virtual TWF, Ambidex3. Expert Ambidexterity4. Weapon Specialization: Greatsword6. Combat Reflexes, Twin Attack8. Improved Critical: Greatsword9. Improved TWF10. Weapon Focus: Armor Spikes12. Power Critical: Greatsword, Weapon Specialization: armor spikes14. Perfect Two Weapon FightingI wish I could find Spikey's old damage calculators, but I'd be willing to bet that either of these constructions will blow the two handed weapon grunt out of the water in terms of damage/round--even if you give him a two point advantage in strength (assuming the point buy str 18, dex 13, con 14, int 10, wis 10, cha 8 construction) and allow the Two Handed Power Strike (double strength bonus with a two handed weapon) feat from Quintissential Fighter. The twin bastard sword guy will accomplish this because his 2d10+2x str is worth an average of two points per round more damage than a greatsword fighter with two more points of strength who deals 2d6+2x str. (Although power attack can make up for this). Once he picks up weapon specialization, his lead increases to four points--outside the reach of power attack. By using multiple energy weapons or by power attacking himself (like all damage bonusses that apply equally to both weapons, a two weapon fighter gets a better deal out of power attack than a two handed weapon fighter), the two bastard sword fighter can extend this lead. Twin attack will extend this lead to apply equally to partial attack actions and attacks of opportunity while granting the two weapon fighter a lot more tactical options than the greatsword tank. (The second attack could be a trip, disarm, grapple attempt or sunder--so the two weapon fighter has the option to deal damage AND make a special attack while the greatsword grunt is limited to one of these options).The shield and axe dual wielder is a slightly more tactical construction. His main damage will come during his charges where he will attack with the waraxe, hit, then strike for double damage with the shield and bull rush his opponent back.The greatsword and armor spikes character competes with the twin bastard sword fighter and knocks him out of the water in terms of damage if you allow two handed power strike. Of course, looking at his feat list, he obviously sacrificed a lot of flexibility to do that.If you don't permit two handed power strike, then there will be absolutely no contest between the greatsword grunt and the dual wielder in terms of damage output. Then the twin bastard sword/greatsword contest looks like this:bastard sword damage: 2x (1d10+2+strength bonus+magic)Greatsword: 2d6+2+1.5(str bonus+1 (greater strength since fewer stats are required))+magicAdvantage: twin bastard sword: +4 points (damage dice)+magic+.5 (strength bonus)-1.5+2 (Specialization)=4.5+magic+.5(strength bonus)When the characters' strengths reach thirty or so (as D&D assumes high level characters' strengths will), that's about 10 points of damage per iterative attack plus damage from magical enhancements.The greatsword grunt does have an advantage in flexibility I suppose--since he has a much more limited selection of essential powerful feats:1. Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus: Greatsword2. Dodge3. Mobility4. Weapon Specialization: Greatsword6. Spring Attack, Two Handed Power Strike?8. Improved Critical: Greatsword9. Iron Will10. Close Quarters Fighting12. Power Critical14. BlindfightThe greatsword fighter can afford to take the spring attack chain, close quarters fighting, and blindfight for a total of five feats worth of flexibility that the twin bastard sword fighter doesn't have. Of course, the twin bastard sword fighter could have these and still deal out more damage than the greatsword grunt if he were willing to give up the more efficient two weapon defense for dodge or give up power critical and the twin bastard sword does have more flexibility than the greatsword grunt in some areas--he does have combat reflexes after all. And he can pick up a shield and use it (and still use most of his feats) if he finds a nice one or needs the extra AC.A quick note about the examples: 32 point buy is, or course, an arbitrary number but a lower point buy (25 or 28) would lower both strength scores which is an advantage to the twin weapon fighter since that means that his larger damage dice and double dipping on weapon specialization make more of a difference. Higher point buy would probably also be to the advantage of the twin weapon fighter since the greatsword grunt can't buy more strength but he can. . . .My suggestions:1. Eliminate the "You are always considered to be wielding a light weapon in your off-hand for purpose of assessing attack penalties while fighting with two weapons" from the text for Expert Ambidexterity. This will eliminate the double bastard sword problem while allowing double swords to remain useful.2. Eliminate the Twin Attack feat--or at least up the pre-reqs by a lot (maybe BAB +12, combat reflexes instead) This negates the biggest disadvantage of two weapon wielders by allowing them to take their damage advantage to attacks of opportunity and charges. From the wording, it would also seem to apply to cleave attacks, expert tactician, and great cleaves.3. I would also consider losing the free virtual ambidex/TWF proficiencies. The feat chain you've created is well worth the opportunity cost of just about every feat in a fighter's career.</blockquote>

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