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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Eldorian" data-source="post: 726358" data-attributes="member: 10504">I have to agree that archers are overpowered, mainly due to the supperior feats in the archery chain and the stacking of enhancment bonus on both bows and arrows.  As for the supposed archery weaknesses... You're kiding right?Grappling.  Most archers have full BAB, and that is the primary contributer of grapple checks.  Also, most melee fighters don't use light weapons, because in melee a 2handed weapon is superior.  If you want to grapple effectively, jump a caster.Sunder/disarm/grapple You do realize that these require you to be melee with the archer?  And that the archer's goal is not to be in melee?  So OF COURSE he's weak in melee, he's a ranged fighter!  As far as dealing with cover and concealment, these are problems with melee fighters as well, more so in cover, because most instances of cover also involve difficulty in getting to the opponent with a melee weapon, and thus the ability to get an attack at all. (top of walls, behind big things that get in the way.)  and the archer can do the same things the melee fighter does to avoid cover.As far as power attack being the balancing factor, a while back I did an analysis of power attacking if you recive 2 or more attacks a round, and it turned out that the damage was superior only if you needed something like a 5 to hit, and then only 1 or 2 points was optimal.  Face it, the only reason to play melee is that it's useful to have big guys in the front soaking up other meleers.  Oh, and getting a melee character on a spell caster is somewhat superior than an archer, although not much, because most casters can successfully cast defensively. Cleave is only good for mook opponents.. It should not be considered in relation to rapid shot, which is always useful (except that one row of bonus to hit seen the the various well done analysis, not Sean's.)As for comparing two weapon fighting and ambidexterity to rapid shot, well, the thread has got it about right, archers get full attacks way more often than melee.  In fact, for melee characters, two handed weapons are far superior in most melee situations.  First off, a greatsword does about the same damage as 2 short swords, assuming you get the same number of off hand attacks as primary.  Secondly, in instances when you only get one attack the round, such as a charge round, or a manouver round, you get way more damage with the greatsword.  2 handed weapons are also superior for cleave and whirwind, the melee feats of mass destruction.  It's obvious for whirlwind, but for cleave, the extra attack you get with the cleave will do more damage, hence a higher chance of getting another kill, hence another chance for a cleave, assuming great cleave.  The only reason to go with two weapons is for sneak attack, and style.  I should make mention of double weapons.  Double weapons are much better than 2 weapons, because in the rounds where you attack only with the primary head of the weapon, you get the 2handed weapon benifits of 1.5 str bonus.  Double weapons are kinda like a combo of two weapons and two handed weapons, falling a little short of 2 handed weapons for single attack rounds, and cleave, whirlwind, and whatnot.  They also cost an additional feat.  They are better on most accounts than two weapons due to superior damage (two weapons are better during grapples, because at least one is light, also for getting swallowed, having a weapon sundered).  Two handed weapons and double weapons are also better for any spell casters, as they can easily let go of the weapon with one hand in order to cast the spell, and grip it with 2 again after casting.Now back to rapid shot.  The reasons archers have it better have been covered by this thread pretty well.  I also threw in my arguement that two handers have it better than dual wielders.  So the melee equivalent of rapid shot is weaker than a melee configuration requiring far less feats.  (ambi, two weapon, improved two weapon, advanced, greater, epic, whatever they call it).Oh, one more arguement for two weapons besides sneak attacks, they do allow, somewhat, double stacking of enhancement bonuses, at least to damage, they get the shaft for to hit.Oh, the shield armor stacking thing.  Is it just my game or does everyone notice that attack bonus and armor bonus scale entirely differently, unless you double up the armor bonus with shield.  Leading to the phrase, "You can't be a tank without a plank."A cloak of displacement has proven to be better tho (my barbarian loves his, and the fighter has cloak envy.)Eldorian Antar</blockquote>

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