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<blockquote data-quote="Kannik" data-source="post: 728198" data-attributes="member: 984">Another quick addition... One must also look at the whole PBS/RS combo in addition or in relation to the feats that they take up.&nbsp; Taking off a bit from an earlier study I did with TWF/Amb:First off.&nbsp; Chances to hit with 0/1/2 hits when rolling an RS:[code][color=white]Needed&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hit 0&nbsp; &nbsp; Hit 1&nbsp;&nbsp; Hit 2&nbsp;to hit:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 25%&nbsp;&nbsp; 50%&nbsp;&nbsp; 25%&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 49%&nbsp;&nbsp; 42%&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 9%&nbsp; &nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 72%&nbsp;&nbsp; 26%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2%[/color][/code]Note that this works for dual shortsword with Amb/TWF as well.Now, taking those percentages, we can do some comparisions.&nbsp; &nbsp; Fighter A is the archer, Fighter B is the big guy with greatsword, fighter C is the crazy one with dual short swords.&nbsp; Lets give Fighter A a comp long bow of +2 strength.&nbsp; A has 18 dex, B and C have 18 str&nbsp; Looking at A and CAverage damage for A: (4.5+2 = 6.5 per shot that hits)(.25*0+.5*6.5+.25*6.5*2) = 6.5 @ 113.9 @ 151.95 @ 17For C, we have:&nbsp; (3.5+(4*1.5/2)=6.5) ~ same damage, same averages = 6.5 @ 113.9 @ 151.95 @ 17Now, Guy B has 2 feats to play with!&nbsp; So, they get Weapon Focus and Power Attack.&nbsp; Using these, they wade into battle, taking off 3 points from their attack in order to make them at -2 to hit, just like A and C.Average Damage for B:&nbsp; (3.5*2+6+3 = 16 per hit).50% chance to hit @ 11+ = 8 points30% @ 15 = 4.8 points20% @ 17 = 3.2 points.AAAAND B didn't spend 300 GP on his comp long bow of +2 str, he spent it on a MW sword.&nbsp; So he can take off 4 to his to hit and remain at the same effective -2 to hit.8.5 @ 115.5 @ 153.4 @ 17Above the 17+ level to hit, hit chances start to get very low at the -2 penalty.&nbsp;&nbsp; So, taking it all into consideration, including the amount of feats spent, etc, one can see that the 2handed guy deals a great much more damage on average.&nbsp; If we add in point-blank shot for the archer that does help but it won't fully redress the balance and at 30' or less, the archer will likely be charged, surrounded, or something similar so they won't be able to fire for too long.This doesn't take into consideration critical hits, which I don't think will swing the balance to the archer -- they may have 3x vs 2x, and the 20 vs 19-20 is 'helped' by the fact they are getting double the rolls, but with strength doubled on the greatsword, that's an extra 6 points you'd have to roll on that extra die in order to make up for it.Of course, B will have to wait until 3rd level to make full use of their Power Attack, since you can't remove more than your BAB.&nbsp; Whether archers are overbalanced, I'm not so convinced.&nbsp; They do get nifty things, but looking at the whole picture, from where I stand right now, at least from a base point of view (not counting magic), they aren't overpowering the greatsword wielder.&nbsp; (is the greatsword too powerful instead?&nbsp; another timeless debate... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue&nbsp; &nbsp; :P"&nbsp; data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />)Again, sorry for the quick reply,Kannik</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Kannik, post: 728198, member: 984"] Another quick addition... One must also look at the whole PBS/RS combo in addition or in relation to the feats that they take up. Taking off a bit from an earlier study I did with TWF/Amb: First off. Chances to hit with 0/1/2 hits when rolling an RS: [code][color=white] Needed Hit 0 Hit 1 Hit 2 to hit: 11 25% 50% 25% 15 49% 42% 9% 17 72% 26% 2% [/color][/code] Note that this works for dual shortsword with Amb/TWF as well. Now, taking those percentages, we can do some comparisions. Fighter A is the archer, Fighter B is the big guy with greatsword, fighter C is the crazy one with dual short swords. Lets give Fighter A a comp long bow of +2 strength. A has 18 dex, B and C have 18 str Looking at A and C Average damage for A: (4.5+2 = 6.5 per shot that hits) (.25*0+.5*6.5+.25*6.5*2) = 6.5 @ 11 3.9 @ 15 1.95 @ 17 For C, we have: (3.5+(4*1.5/2)=6.5) ~ same damage, same averages = 6.5 @ 11 3.9 @ 15 1.95 @ 17 Now, Guy B has 2 feats to play with! So, they get Weapon Focus and Power Attack. Using these, they wade into battle, taking off 3 points from their attack in order to make them at -2 to hit, just like A and C. Average Damage for B: (3.5*2+6+3 = 16 per hit). 50% chance to hit @ 11+ = 8 points 30% @ 15 = 4.8 points 20% @ 17 = 3.2 points. AAAAND B didn't spend 300 GP on his comp long bow of +2 str, he spent it on a MW sword. So he can take off 4 to his to hit and remain at the same effective -2 to hit. 8.5 @ 11 5.5 @ 15 3.4 @ 17 Above the 17+ level to hit, hit chances start to get very low at the -2 penalty. So, taking it all into consideration, including the amount of feats spent, etc, one can see that the 2handed guy deals a great much more damage on average. If we add in point-blank shot for the archer that does help but it won't fully redress the balance and at 30' or less, the archer will likely be charged, surrounded, or something similar so they won't be able to fire for too long. This doesn't take into consideration critical hits, which I don't think will swing the balance to the archer -- they may have 3x vs 2x, and the 20 vs 19-20 is 'helped' by the fact they are getting double the rolls, but with strength doubled on the greatsword, that's an extra 6 points you'd have to roll on that extra die in order to make up for it. Of course, B will have to wait until 3rd level to make full use of their Power Attack, since you can't remove more than your BAB. Whether archers are overbalanced, I'm not so convinced. They do get nifty things, but looking at the whole picture, from where I stand right now, at least from a base point of view (not counting magic), they aren't overpowering the greatsword wielder. (is the greatsword too powerful instead? another timeless debate... :P) Again, sorry for the quick reply, Kannik [/QUOTE]

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