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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7849482" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>But Pathfinder is the wrong kind of game for that wish.</p><p></p><p>While it might be easy to place level 20 threats far away from low-level civilization, it isn't easy to explain how the heroes never face a threat a mere 3-5 levels higher.</p><p></p><p>And such a threat, yes even a single monster just three levels higher, can easily end up with the death of a player character.</p><p></p><p>What you need is "proficiency without level"; what 5E would call "bounded accuracy".</p><p></p><p>PF2 on the other hand is unapologetically a game where levels have a hysterical impact. Where the heroes ideally never face any threat more than four levels higher.</p><p></p><p>It is the opposite of the sandbox experience. It is the opposite of bounded accuracy.</p><p></p><p>Any threat or challenge with a flat DC will be impossible, impossible, then reasonable for a fleeting moment in the heroes' career, then trivial, trivial and trivial.</p><p></p><p>In a game where level has such a profound impact, you can't have flat DCs on brick walls, or the players can traverse castle walls as if they weren't there already by level 4-5 - no magic necessary.</p><p></p><p>You pretty much must start with easy rough walls that are easy to climb, and make them successively taller, smoother, and harder.</p><p></p><p>Or, in other words, use the PCs level to look up the DC.</p><p></p><p>Sure, you can throw in a trivial DC from time to time to make the players feel they have made progress. But the truth about tightly bound math games like 4E or PF2 is that they don't care about giving the players the feeling of having risen above the average. They do everything in their power to keep up the challenge. No matter how high attack bonuses the heroes have, the monsters AC always keep up.</p><p></p><p>This is why I love "grounded" games, and the "bounded accuracy" of 5E makes it more grounded than possibly any previous edition.</p><p></p><p>The choice is between a world where just a few heroes (and foes) have risen above the regular (low-level) world around them; or a game where the heroes live in a "bubble" where they just happen to always face monsters up to 4 levels below or above them.</p><p></p><p>4E was notorious for having "adventures" which consisted of nothing more than a series of combat encounters carefully balanced to always provide just the right amount of challenge. I have a different name for that: "treadmill".</p><p></p><p>You CAN recreate the feeling of one game in the other, but it IS harder when you're going against the grain, as it were. (Example: if a party of level 5 heroes face a level 15 threat in 5E, they might not stand a chance fighting it, but they might conceivably manage to escape; run away, hide or similar. In PF2 the same encounter is an assured death sentence: every attack is a crit, which likely means every attack downs one character; not to mention all the other aspects.)</p><p></p><p>Tldr do use flat DCs, but if you must use PF2, use proficiency without level.</p><p></p><p></p><p>PS. Obviously the wall example has its limits in a game with fly and teleport. Please don't respond as if I believe there should be a wall not even level 20 heroes would find trivial, because I don't. Replace "wall" with "dragon" if that helps.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7849482, member: 12731"] But Pathfinder is the wrong kind of game for that wish. While it might be easy to place level 20 threats far away from low-level civilization, it isn't easy to explain how the heroes never face a threat a mere 3-5 levels higher. And such a threat, yes even a single monster just three levels higher, can easily end up with the death of a player character. What you need is "proficiency without level"; what 5E would call "bounded accuracy". PF2 on the other hand is unapologetically a game where levels have a hysterical impact. Where the heroes ideally never face any threat more than four levels higher. It is the opposite of the sandbox experience. It is the opposite of bounded accuracy. Any threat or challenge with a flat DC will be impossible, impossible, then reasonable for a fleeting moment in the heroes' career, then trivial, trivial and trivial. In a game where level has such a profound impact, you can't have flat DCs on brick walls, or the players can traverse castle walls as if they weren't there already by level 4-5 - no magic necessary. You pretty much must start with easy rough walls that are easy to climb, and make them successively taller, smoother, and harder. Or, in other words, use the PCs level to look up the DC. Sure, you can throw in a trivial DC from time to time to make the players feel they have made progress. But the truth about tightly bound math games like 4E or PF2 is that they don't care about giving the players the feeling of having risen above the average. They do everything in their power to keep up the challenge. No matter how high attack bonuses the heroes have, the monsters AC always keep up. This is why I love "grounded" games, and the "bounded accuracy" of 5E makes it more grounded than possibly any previous edition. The choice is between a world where just a few heroes (and foes) have risen above the regular (low-level) world around them; or a game where the heroes live in a "bubble" where they just happen to always face monsters up to 4 levels below or above them. 4E was notorious for having "adventures" which consisted of nothing more than a series of combat encounters carefully balanced to always provide just the right amount of challenge. I have a different name for that: "treadmill". You CAN recreate the feeling of one game in the other, but it IS harder when you're going against the grain, as it were. (Example: if a party of level 5 heroes face a level 15 threat in 5E, they might not stand a chance fighting it, but they might conceivably manage to escape; run away, hide or similar. In PF2 the same encounter is an assured death sentence: every attack is a crit, which likely means every attack downs one character; not to mention all the other aspects.) Tldr do use flat DCs, but if you must use PF2, use proficiency without level. PS. Obviously the wall example has its limits in a game with fly and teleport. Please don't respond as if I believe there should be a wall not even level 20 heroes would find trivial, because I don't. Replace "wall" with "dragon" if that helps. [/QUOTE]
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