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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 7851118" data-attributes="member: 957">Agreed.&nbsp; &nbsp; But....Now I assume when you say you think they have succeeded, I presume here that you are only speaking for yourself.&nbsp; Obviously that would be truth, but in the context here, the question was about wide appeal, not just case by case.You described it as a narrow fanbase appeal.&nbsp; And I agree with you on both counts.&nbsp; They did not intend to do that, but I very much think that they did.I think the often cited comparison to both 4E and 5E are largely misguided.&nbsp; But there are certainly key points that can be recognized.&nbsp; IMO it is no coincidence that both WotC and Paizo followed 3X games with a strongly reactionary alternative which mechanically places the highest priority on the math and game-play balance.I still like PF1E a lot.&nbsp;&nbsp; But I've never wavered from the idea that it was time to move on.&nbsp; For me personally, I've been playing some variation for 20 years now and I'm ready.&nbsp; But much more importantly, the market had CLEARLY moved on.&nbsp; So I think Paizo's #1 #2 and #3 goal was to improve their position in market share.&nbsp; PF1E was only going to continue a downward drift.But I also think that they wanted to create &quot;their own&quot; game and try to escape the &quot;other guy's design&quot; albatross.&nbsp; And, I think that the squeaky wheel gets the grease.&nbsp; In this case that means that the people who were happily playing PF didn't have any reason to speak up often, but the well known issues were griped about forever by those who were bugged by them .&nbsp; And that comes back to the math is sacred principle that shined so bright in both 4E and PF2E.To me, 2E doesn't feel mechanically satisfying.&nbsp; The math comes first and embracing the nature of the character is then shoe-horned in as well as the math will allow.&nbsp;&nbsp; Obviously a 2E wizard is a wizard and a ranger is a ranger.&nbsp; I'm not making an absolute statement.&nbsp; But everything is relative.&nbsp; And compared to other games that I can play (such as PF1E)&nbsp; the focus on keeping the math in line destroys the satisfaction of &quot;being&quot; the character.In my current game the characters are L6.&nbsp; The lowest AC is 15.&nbsp; The highest is 24.&nbsp; And those values FEEL right within the story.&nbsp; And I could list a dozen other places where the mechanics are completely out of whack in terms of &quot;balance&quot;.&nbsp; But everyone loves their character and they feel like they are facing challenges that engage each characters strength and weaknesses.No matter how different a wizards fireball may be from the ranger's arrows, I believe that PF2E will feel more and more homogeneous as people continue to play with the tight mathematical skeleton.And so I think it is already cut itself off from a lot of the fanbase and that will grow.&nbsp; &nbsp; Which isn't to say the least bit critical of anyone who loves it.&nbsp; If you are having a blast at the table then the conversation is over.There are obviously still people who love 4E and it works perfect for them.&nbsp; It is all good.But it does come back to &quot;craft beer&quot; when they wanted to appeal to everyone.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 7851118, member: 957"] Agreed. But.... Now I assume when you say you think they have succeeded, I presume here that you are only speaking for yourself. Obviously that would be truth, but in the context here, the question was about wide appeal, not just case by case. You described it as a narrow fanbase appeal. And I agree with you on both counts. They did not [I]intend[/I] to do that, but I very much think that they did. I think the often cited comparison to both 4E and 5E are largely misguided. But there are certainly key points that can be recognized. IMO it is no coincidence that both WotC and Paizo followed 3X games with a strongly reactionary alternative which mechanically places the highest priority on the math and game-play balance. I still like PF1E a lot. But I've never wavered from the idea that it was time to move on. For me personally, I've been playing some variation for 20 years now and I'm ready. But much more importantly, the market had CLEARLY moved on. So I think Paizo's #1 #2 and #3 goal was to improve their position in market share. PF1E was only going to continue a downward drift. But I also think that they wanted to create "their own" game and try to escape the "other guy's design" albatross. And, I think that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. In this case that means that the people who were happily playing PF didn't have any reason to speak up often, but the well known issues were griped about forever by those who were bugged by them . And that comes back to the math is sacred principle that shined so bright in both 4E and PF2E. To me, 2E doesn't feel mechanically satisfying. The math comes first and embracing the nature of the character is then shoe-horned in as well as the math will allow. Obviously a 2E wizard is a wizard and a ranger is a ranger. I'm not making an absolute statement. But everything is relative. And compared to other games that I can play (such as PF1E) the focus on keeping the math in line destroys the satisfaction of "being" the character. In my current game the characters are L6. The lowest AC is 15. The highest is 24. And those values FEEL right within the story. And I could list a dozen other places where the mechanics are completely out of whack in terms of "balance". But everyone loves their character and they feel like they are facing challenges that engage each characters strength and weaknesses. No matter how different a wizards fireball may be from the ranger's arrows, I believe that PF2E will feel more and more homogeneous as people continue to play with the tight mathematical skeleton. And so I think it is already cut itself off from a lot of the fanbase and that will grow. Which isn't to say the least bit critical of anyone who loves it. If you are having a blast at the table then the conversation is over. There are obviously still people who love 4E and it works perfect for them. It is all good. But it does come back to "craft beer" when they wanted to appeal to everyone. [/QUOTE]

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