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Message: <blockquote data-quote="neostrider" data-source="post: 7852330" data-attributes="member: 6701430">I would recognize that both are a grind and not a valuable use of table time.  I also think the system has 2 impacts on that experience: the amount of grind per level disparity, the amount of control the player has to reduce their grind.In the Gates of Mordor examples, what's not handled is the player's ability to roleplay or think around a problem. (Ignoring the possibility of having a mini adventure to avoid a skill check)   PF1 had a simple but mathematical solution:  dozens of +1 bonuses.   5E asks for a good enough reason then prescribes advantage. PF2 teases out a few +1 bonuses and casts your fate to the die.A dragon fight is a good example.   PF1 dragon fights practically begged an epic all night slog of wheeling out ballista,  spells, plenty of supplies,  maybe a few NPCs, and GM plz for everyone's enjoyment don't just plop it down and full attack the fighter in a static fight.5e and from what I've seen of PF2 so far, want to stay in a cave and trade hit points. Tracking dragon movement is reduced,  hitting is expected... there's less tension in my mind because possibilities are reduced and the numbers are more predetermined.This is fine for the group that wants the dragon fight to end in an hour or two.   I think PF2 left a niche behind with the players that kept PF1 alive for 3.X's different kind of story telling potential.</blockquote>