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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 7885554" data-attributes="member: 957">Well, obviously I have presented critical comments which you, as a major supporter, remain incapable of responding to and continue to attempt to change the subject away from.I've played many many games over the years. I know what I like and what I don't. I've been critical of games before that didn't work for me as I've had supporters proclaim that certainly my position must come from lack of adequate understanding. This always follows their failure to address the actual complaints.I think it is fair to say that as long as you continue to evade my complaints, that they stand as valid and my capacity for providing valid critical comments is validated.But.... I'll respond to your posts. But if you do not include a strong response to my prior comments in any reply, I'll take that as simply a default on your part. I'm happy to play this game, but if you can't carry your end, then the game is no fun.To be clear, I think that PF2E does a decidedly inferior job of promoting the narrative. I already noted that PLAYERS bring story to the game and no system can "disrupt" that. The question is: what mechanical system does best to enhance the experience?I don't accept that PF2E does any particularly great job of creating diverse characters. Having a sword and board fighter play differently than a fireball flinging mage is a very low bar to set.PF2E does establish balance. It demands and mandates mathematical balance. I find this obligation of math to be at the root of its failure. I like the 3AE. I use it as previously published for PF1E. It has no bearing on the math vs narrative issue.Noted. I am quite happy with the PF1E system. And you have really said anything here beyond generic fawning.So, in summary, you like PF2E "because". Ok.IN PF2E the math is dominant over the narrative elements in determining how the mechanical presentation of everything is expressed. The 3X core is based on the basic D20 and has a foundational assumption that someone who is optimized at something scales along a +level path with other modifiers included in that. So any martial character attacking with a weapon of choice, roguish character doing stealthy or similar tasks, or a scholarly character making a knowledge check all end up somewhat comparable to the 2E result. But a character outside of their wheelhouse can be massively off this mark. And there can be major "lack of balance" when two things which, when considered from a purely narrative evaluation are not at all balance are placed alongside each other.  I call this “getting the narrative right”.PF1E says what are you:  A sword fighter?  Ok, then you must be at optimal bonus to attack, plus an extra bonus (focus feat) when using your sword of choice, plus some bonus for your STR, probably a magic weapon.  Maybe some other things.PF2E says: what level are you?  OK in order to be “balanced” the number we allow must be pretty close to X.  Now, once we have that locked in we can look at you and add some small tweaks to allow for narrative reflection.  You get your STR, you can have EXPERT as a small bonus.  But you are not permitted to go outside a tight boundary away from that “what level are you” baseline.  Because, heaven forbid, your sword fighter might become “completely dominant” at sword fighting “over the course of levels”.  And clearly PF2E doesn’t want that natural narrative outcome to raise its against that math head and muddle with our balance first approach. In the stories the sword fighter should be “completely dominant” at sword fighting and balance at this thing doesn’t care in the least about getting the story right.I get and fully accept that you don’t care about this and this balance is a boon to you.  I am not claiming that there is any flaw in being a fan of PF2E.  But you are rejecting the notion that I understand the game or can claim that there are narrative flaws in the mechanics.  It may be that your concern about “narrative purity” makes zero recognition of this and you think I’m being absurd in my obsession on getting these details right.  I am guilty.  I demand that any game I play make a strong effort at getting those details right and I have the luxury of playing games which achieve this.  So I have the luxury of rejecting games which reject my priorities. The eleventh hour change to removing +level from untrained was a HUGE step in the right direction.  But overall the game still focuses on the “balance” to the defeat of narrative. You don’t have to agree.  But when I see a character just written up I already feel like it is a three year old crayon scratching when I could have a oil on canvas masterpiece.  I don’t need to do a lot of playing to know that seeing the sloppy crayons will detract from my pleasure.</blockquote>

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