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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7888646" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>Well, I can't deconstruct a thousand-page rules engine here and now... so where do I start? The action economy means a monster can potentially score three hits during its turn. Since damage is significant compared to hit points, this makes a non-trivial monsters a threat. This gives players pause. Players respecting the monsters is a big plus.</p><p></p><p>And that's just a single thing. Maybe easier to say what PF2 <em>doesn't</em> have: in 5E the Player's Handbook liberally hands out abilities (feats, spells, ...) that monsters can only dream about having. That creates a very unfortunate atmosphere where the players' characters are just straight up superior to everybody else - a most unhealthy notion in a game already so plagued with superhero complex.</p><p></p><p>Many 5E monster abilities are in turn stunted or strangled. The basic action economy for one thing: very few monsters can do their interesting thing (movement, debuffing, ...) in the same round they do their effective thing (multiattack). So many times I've seen my monsters die before they got to show off their distinctive traits simply because the one round they got to act, I opted to have them actually do some damage instead of just showing off with no impact. In the end, I had to relax these senseless limitations just to reinject some fun into the monsters. (Just one example: Of course a high-level monster should be able to teleport <strong>and</strong> attack - high-level heroes are built to take on such critters. If the monster can only do either, it's basically defanged)</p><p></p><p>This is not a problem in PF2. Monsters routinely have the same movement capabilities as most PCs - it isn't cheap to create a hero that can outrun monsters. Besides, the three actions mean that any creature that spends all of them on movement WILL reach its foe. And ranged damage is thankfully scaled back from 5E's insane levels. In short: kiting bruisers was trivial in 5E and I'm glad Paizo won't stand for it.</p><p></p><p>I'm sure there is much much more. You're right, this is not chiefly about what's in the stat block, it's in the system. Still, the claim 5E monsters would work just fine in PF2 makes little sense to me.</p><p></p><p>tl;dr: The monster stats might read "much the same" but boy, are you in for a surprise if you draw conclusions based on that! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7888646, member: 12731"] Well, I can't deconstruct a thousand-page rules engine here and now... so where do I start? The action economy means a monster can potentially score three hits during its turn. Since damage is significant compared to hit points, this makes a non-trivial monsters a threat. This gives players pause. Players respecting the monsters is a big plus. And that's just a single thing. Maybe easier to say what PF2 [I]doesn't[/I] have: in 5E the Player's Handbook liberally hands out abilities (feats, spells, ...) that monsters can only dream about having. That creates a very unfortunate atmosphere where the players' characters are just straight up superior to everybody else - a most unhealthy notion in a game already so plagued with superhero complex. Many 5E monster abilities are in turn stunted or strangled. The basic action economy for one thing: very few monsters can do their interesting thing (movement, debuffing, ...) in the same round they do their effective thing (multiattack). So many times I've seen my monsters die before they got to show off their distinctive traits simply because the one round they got to act, I opted to have them actually do some damage instead of just showing off with no impact. In the end, I had to relax these senseless limitations just to reinject some fun into the monsters. (Just one example: Of course a high-level monster should be able to teleport [B]and[/B] attack - high-level heroes are built to take on such critters. If the monster can only do either, it's basically defanged) This is not a problem in PF2. Monsters routinely have the same movement capabilities as most PCs - it isn't cheap to create a hero that can outrun monsters. Besides, the three actions mean that any creature that spends all of them on movement WILL reach its foe. And ranged damage is thankfully scaled back from 5E's insane levels. In short: kiting bruisers was trivial in 5E and I'm glad Paizo won't stand for it. I'm sure there is much much more. You're right, this is not chiefly about what's in the stat block, it's in the system. Still, the claim 5E monsters would work just fine in PF2 makes little sense to me. tl;dr: The monster stats might read "much the same" but boy, are you in for a surprise if you draw conclusions based on that! :) [/QUOTE]
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