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<blockquote data-quote="Mercule" data-source="post: 6382923" data-attributes="member: 5100">Interesting. I would have rated the Rogue's Theme as &quot;needs a shovel&quot;.We're using LMoP as a &quot;Demo mode&quot; for 5E. There hasn't been much wholesale rebuilds, but a bit of tweaking to ensure we know the rules. Most folks are enjoying their characters, but the Rogue player is not even a little happy. Sure, he's probably got more kills under his belt than the fighter, but the 5E rules have totally removed his niche. Most of the characters are high-dex, so have good stealth. The wood elf Cleric has a high-enough passive perception that he's almost laughing at the Rogue for not being able to find doors. The wizard has a criminal background, so he can pick locks no problem. What's left for the Rogue? He doesn't suck, statistically -- like I said, he's probably got a higher kill count than the fighter. That's probably as thematically concerning as having all the standard Rogue/Thief bases covered by other characters; if he wanted to measure &quot;awesome&quot; by kill count, he would have played a fighter-type. Instead, we're left with a character that feels like a fifth-wheel for all the reasons you'd pick the class, but is accidentally overshadowing others in areas he should be secondary.Don't get me wrong: I like that you can run a full stealth party; in 3E we tried doing RtToEE all stealth and had to make too many compromises to be effective. 5E makes that possible. My group is concerned that the Rogue has strayed too far from its roots in the Thief class. If the Rogue is now just the better light Fighter, then Sneak Attack doesn't really match, thematically. But, removing that would depower the class. So, what, exactly, is the theme of the Rogue class?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mercule, post: 6382923, member: 5100"] Interesting. I would have rated the Rogue's Theme as "needs a shovel". We're using LMoP as a "Demo mode" for 5E. There hasn't been much wholesale rebuilds, but a bit of tweaking to ensure we know the rules. Most folks are enjoying their characters, but the Rogue player is not even a little happy. Sure, he's probably got more kills under his belt than the fighter, but the 5E rules have totally removed his niche. Most of the characters are high-dex, so have good stealth. The wood elf Cleric has a high-enough passive perception that he's almost laughing at the Rogue for not being able to find doors. The wizard has a criminal background, so he can pick locks no problem. What's left for the Rogue? He doesn't [u]suck[/u], statistically -- like I said, he's probably got a higher kill count than the fighter. That's probably as thematically concerning as having all the standard Rogue/Thief bases covered by other characters; if he wanted to measure "awesome" by kill count, he would have played a fighter-type. Instead, we're left with a character that feels like a fifth-wheel for all the reasons you'd pick the class, but is accidentally overshadowing others in areas he should be secondary. Don't get me wrong: I like that you can run a full stealth party; in 3E we tried doing RtToEE all stealth and had to make too many compromises to be effective. 5E makes that possible. My group is concerned that the Rogue has strayed too far from its roots in the Thief class. If the Rogue is now just the better light Fighter, then Sneak Attack doesn't really match, thematically. But, removing that would depower the class. So, what, exactly, [U]is[/U] the theme of the Rogue class? [/QUOTE]

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