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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8260480" data-attributes="member: 93670">yes I said that because I'm capable of enjoying the view & experience of doing something cool with friends/family/etc that is made capable only because of  that stress.  That mix of stress fear excitement & pleasure hormones can be found in a great many ways, but the screams accompanying so many videos of rollercoasters & skydivers that it's practically a stereotype. That highly stimulated mix of adrenaline oxytocin dopamine & cortisol  is present in each of those to varying degrees.   I picked the sunshine skyway bridge because I've twice had to get a friend & spouse to come get me & my car so I could cross it to get to their house while visiting them in tampa/leaving with both trip being a weirdly enjoyable experience rather than simply because it's a scary looking mountain of a bridge.  We are probably never going to agree on phobias, that's ok though because we don't need to in order to talk about why the dislike/emotionally harmful distinction is important to improving these kinds of tools to meet the needs of a horror campaign where the characters are expected to be deliberately unsettled. Approval & agreement is different from recognizing serious problems being ignored in order to use some of these tools for something they were not designed for.There are probably therapy & care type situations where tools very similar to these are used to help make sure vulnerable & traumatized individuals  are not accidentally given problematic negative stimulus in a situation or environment  not trying to deliberately use things like horror tropes with the intent of disturbing the character being played by an individual player. That makes areas where analogous tools are used in order to safely enjoy the deliberate engagement in potentially harmful  activities a better source to look towards for improvements than that possible therapeutic/care one.Here is a good example from a rhime of the frostmaiden game I'm playing in where horror tropes unexpectedly came up in relevant ways that show where these kinds of tools need growth to meet the levels needed for a campaign where horror tropes are expected to come up deliberately.  This all developed organically in a game not expecting horror in an encounter the GM expected to generate a dead ghost.  That ghost almost did die twice & in the process one player was made uncomfortable by the GM attempting to avoid killing low level PCs.  Possession was involved, nut that gleefully experienced ability of the ghost was not the problem either.  Correcting those problems involves discussion rather than blindly accepting that a good first step as the gold standard end all be all[spoiler="some events from a recent rhime game I'm in"]There is a point where you can encounter a lawful neutral MM147 wearing an NPC's body because they have rather undefined things they want to keep doing.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Player1 was aged around 30-40 years by horrifying visage & pretty much shrugged as a changeling & opted to fix herlooks later. Player2 was possessed & said player was thrilled after getting a text saying it was LN & asked to go off to the side to talk to the gm .  GM was worried because he expected  to be getting a ration of naughty word only to be surprised when the player wanted details on the ghost's motivations & such(completely mundane bordering on near nonexistent motivations & goals). Player3 went on for like three sessions playing this ghost as it juggled learning the abilities of the new meat suit & the suspicions of two other players. everyone had a blast.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mid session 3 Player1 &  player3 agreed they were going to confront the  ghost in their friend.  They had been occasionally watching player2 work with the gm openly & secretly towards the goal of said ghost getting dumped to his awakened spellbook in a couple levels. They didn't know specifics but knew there were enthusiastic plans in motion from player2  The confrontation was not done well & this player still wanted to keep this ghost so was very motivated.  This happened largely because player3 decided he was going to force the issue using a sword at night while staying in different locked rooms at an inn. Everyone is still having a blast</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Players2 &3 were obviously not unified & did a poor job in the initial confrontation allowing the ghost to escape with the meatsuit secretly cheering on from the back seat.  Remember, the possessed player2 had more than once told them everything was fine as a player & to let things play out while player1 was suspicious but finding it interesting to watch.  Everyone is still having a blast</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Eventually they caught up & after forcing the ghost from their friend with a spell(PfG&E?).  Player2 is worried about the ghost he wanted to make into his awakened spellbook's <a href="https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Bob" target="_blank">bob</a>maybe being about to get killed.  Everyone is still having a blast<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ghost is next up on the initiative, player3 is aged 10 years (minimum) by a panicked ghost suddenly forced from a comfy meat suit..  but player3 was very upset. even though it was only the minimum10 years.</li> </ul></li> </ul>[/spoiler]That's not even a horror game & the ghost's motives were basically to not be dead. One player was having a blast needing to balance "do anything needed" with "do everything to blend in enough".  A second player was a paladin happy to have an excuse that let them fume with indignation. A third wanted to better understand the situation until suddenly zomg my character is ten years older(?!?!)the party must fix with forced march across icewind dale to a church for a greater restorationThis was an entirely unplanned case of near <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SymbioticPossession" target="_blank">SymbioticPossession</a> rather than some kind of horror themed <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DemonicPossession" target="_blank">DemonicPossession</a>  in a non horror campaign resulting in two different players thrilled for completely different unexpected reasons & a third freaked out  over things  that barely fit within the lines & veils or various ill suited checklists being repurposed.  Mot if not all of those things  that were completely unknown by the players. in a single turn two sessions after everyone (including Player1) forgot Player1 was aged 30-40 years player3 realized that having her character subjected to r<a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapidAging" target="_blank">apid aging</a> is emotionally harmful.  The GM was kinda worried about the whole thing and admitted he used that ability because  nobody seemed to care when it happened to player1 &  based on our  after session mid cleanup chat he said that the only reason for doing that was trying not to risk killing any of the very low level PCs with the no longer meatsuited ghost he was unexpectedly controlling. In anon-horror game a GM did all that by trying to avoid doing something that might upset someoneWho's at fault for Player 3's discomfort?... player1 for playing along with an NPC that seems to only be affecting them?  Player 2 for forcing the issue with potential violence?  The GM for making an honest attempt to avoid causing anyone discomfort over a PC death?  Player 3 for  not saying anything that would have allowed her to make her discomfort over being the target of "<a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/ghost" target="_blank">horrifying Visage</a>" when it happened to player 1 a couple sessions prior to it hitting her? In this case the fault or share of it were probably not too important  matter if it's anyone at all but in a horror campaign it could have been much worse. Here's how those tools could be improved to handle those kind of needs.  Take Lines & veils as a start[spoiler="Lines & veils blurb"][ATTACH=full]136250[/ATTACH][/spoiler]veils are a great concept for  a horror game or horror themed campaign for the same reason they are i horror films where they are called a  <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DiscretionShot" target="_blank">Discretion Shot</a>. Whatever you call it they are absolutely not a "soft limit".  The events of that frostmaiden game nicely show why correcting that is important if the idea of safety tools for a horror campaign  is to be taken seriously.  From here on I'll be making quite a few references to how the term soft limits has been used for many many years in other communities & quoting articles on them.The bit on lines & hard limits in lines & veils kicks off as a good start, simplified but not bad. That simplistic problem no doubt led to a lot of the "they might not really be X" discussion due to the resulting ambiguity making it difficult if not impossible to avoid misinterpretation.  Take this blurb I pulled from part of a hard limits vrs soft limits article.  I'm going to change the underlined word to  a reasonable substitute that probably wasn't needed[spoiler="blurb on HARD LIMITS"][/spoiler]That is a clear & concise explanation of the kinds of things that need to be considered for a hard limit & leaves little room for confusion if someone should check an item as a hard limit or line in ways that both "lines & veils" as well as "[ATTACH=full]136255[/ATTACH]" does not. It also clearly expresses the gravity of why someone should be checking a hard limit.  I have never heard or seen debate over hard limits in that community like I saw in the last thread over if someone should really check something as a line or not.  Clear wording like that would have avoided the whole "debate" in the first place.That veil  as a soft limit though?.... it describes a  <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DiscretionShot" target="_blank">Discretion Shot</a> not a soft limit. Soft limits are important and fill a very different role than fade to black or a thing happening to someone else who might be enjoying it.  From the same article here's the writeup for soft limits, again with the underline[spoiler="Blurb on SOFT LIMITS"][/spoiler]The lines and veils assume perfect knowledge  & leave no room for "I dunno  does nothing either way" while not doing anything to encourage people to keep thinking on them or revisiting them. Prior to those icewind dale game where player1 player2 & player3 all learned that various inadvertent horror tropes taught them  that they have totally unexpected (dis)interests & if we were playing a horror campaign with tools intended for a horror campaign should have updated them accordingly. If a player doesn't know & thinks they have no strong feelings either way  so check off a green [ATTACH=full]136256[/ATTACH] because they've not been given good guidance on what the options mean & important options are missing. Checking that green tells the GM to do exactly that full speed ahead.  If a player doesn't know & they check off something as a soft limit that soft limit is an area  the GM knows to tread lightly & ease into things in a way that players can raise anything being newly discovered that needs raising</blockquote>

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