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<blockquote data-quote="mlund" data-source="post: 4287908" data-attributes="member: 50304">Yes, Thunderwave can't differentiate between friend and foe, so it is prone to friendly-fire incidents.I wonder about Cloud of Daggers vs. minions, as minions do not take damage from a missed attack - even if it has &quot;miss&quot; damage. Causing automatic damage at the start of the target's next turn is still an effect of an Attack that missed that minion - and thusly I'd think the minion ignores the damage.As to the damage output of the Cloud of Daggers, &quot;It's still just a point or two of damage,&quot; doesn't make a compelling argument to me. Everything is &quot;just a point or two of damage,&quot; in the short term - Weapon Focus, Power Attack, racial weapon damage feats, etc. Those extra points of damage add up and kill things, period.When an Int 18, Wis 14 Wizard hits with a Cloud of Daggers he deals 1d6 + 6 damage to an enemy, plus an additional 2 damage at the start of the enemy's next turn (assuming that enemy survived). That's an average of 11.5 damage per round. Magic Missile w/ 18 Int is 2d4 + 4 damage, or an average of 9.0 damage per round. Over a 4 round fight that's an average of 10 extra damage.On top of the that it leaves an on-board hazard for the whole round that he and his companions can take advantage of by pushing and sliding foes through the damaging square.Both for raw damage and on-board utility, Cloud of Daggers is a better spell for a Wizard that uses his ability scores wisely. Magic Missile has better range and interactions with powers that key off of basic ranged attacks (all of 1 epic-level Warlord power at the moment).- Marty Lund</blockquote>

[QUOTE="mlund, post: 4287908, member: 50304"] Yes, Thunderwave can't differentiate between friend and foe, so it is prone to friendly-fire incidents. I wonder about Cloud of Daggers vs. minions, as minions do not take damage from a missed attack - even if it has "miss" damage. Causing automatic damage at the start of the target's next turn is still an effect of an Attack that missed that minion - and thusly I'd think the minion ignores the damage. As to the damage output of the Cloud of Daggers, "It's still just a point or two of damage," doesn't make a compelling argument to me. Everything is "just a point or two of damage," in the short term - Weapon Focus, Power Attack, racial weapon damage feats, etc. Those extra points of damage add up and kill things, period. When an Int 18, Wis 14 Wizard hits with a Cloud of Daggers he deals 1d6 + 6 damage to an enemy, plus an additional 2 damage at the start of the enemy's next turn (assuming that enemy survived). That's an average of 11.5 damage per round. Magic Missile w/ 18 Int is 2d4 + 4 damage, or an average of 9.0 damage per round. Over a 4 round fight that's an average of 10 extra damage. On top of the that it leaves an on-board hazard for the whole round that he and his companions can take advantage of by pushing and sliding foes through the damaging square. Both for raw damage and on-board utility, Cloud of Daggers is a better spell for a Wizard that uses his ability scores wisely. Magic Missile has better range and interactions with powers that key off of basic ranged attacks (all of 1 epic-level Warlord power at the moment). - Marty Lund [/QUOTE]

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