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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Anax" data-source="post: 2586694" data-attributes="member: 19868">The division between being in-initiative and being out-of-initiative can be slightly tricky.  The first thing is to make sure everybody has the same idea of what it is to be "in-initiative" vs "out-of-initiative".  This can vary from group to group, but I think it'll tend to settle on a common idea as time goes on and you try to figure out what's reasonable.  (If people aren't interested in being reasonable, the issue is more of a player-DM interaction problem.)The model my group usually use is this (though we don't have anything codified, this is the way we generally behave.)1) If the players are wandering around doing things, they are out of initiative.  One really good thing to note here is that you cannot (normally) take 10 or take 20 while in combat.  So if your rogue is advancing carefully down the corridor, taking 10 on search checks looking for traps, the group is *not* in combat.  Not in combat generally implies not in initiative.That restriction on taking 10 and the like is a good reason (in the meta-game) that players don't stay in initiative all the time.  The game model is that the kind of focus you enter while in initiative is stressful.  (Hence, you're less certain of your skills, etc.)2) If an enemy jumps out and attacks, initiative begins.  If the PCs weren't aware of the enemy, there may be a surprise round.  If the PCs were aware of the enemy, there won't be.This sometimes leads to confusion over whether people know they're being attacked, and when.  Let's say they're facing a wizard in his tower, and discussing with him the possibility of stopping his experiments with were-cows (which are terrifying the villagers.)  The wizard decides that he's had enough of arguments, and begins to cast a fireball spell.The players have no readied actions at this point, but they are ready to be attacked, and are aware of the enemy.  The wizard doesn't get a surprise round.  But what about the players who come before the wizard in initiative order?  The reasonable way to treat this is that they know he is beginning to act (he's begun to drop into a fighting stance, or whipped his staff out, or whatever), but they do not know what action he is going to take.  Players who roll higher initiative than the wizard might choose to ready an action at this point, or choose to delay until they see what the wizard does.We usually make sure we say "the wizard enters initiative" at this point in the game, to avoid revealing exactly what the wizard is going to do.  The actions of the characters (ready, delay, immediately leap forward and attack) denote a sort of second-order level of readiness.  If the characters think the wizard might just be preparing to flee, for example, they might not immediately leap forward and attack.  The more aggressive (and paranoid) folks will tend to attack first and find out that the wizard was going to cast dimension door later.  The less aggressive (and trusting) folks will tend to delay to find out that the wizard has, in fact, cast a fireball and set it in their laps.Of course, the players can also choose, at any time, to enter initiative.  And as soon as they do so, everybody else rolls for initiative, and the wizard can tell something is starting to happen.  It's much more common on this side for a player to just say "I shoot the wizard", at which point the cat's kind of out of the bag--but the right thing to do is to have all of the other characters be aware that this character is about to do something, but not what.There *is* also a place for surprise in this kind of circumstance, although it can be hard to adjudicate.  If people have let down their guard (on either side), then a sudden action could result in a surprise round taking place.  This makes more sense when people aren't expecting trouble in the first place (in a seemingly secure area--perhaps a council chamber, where one of the council members suddenly fires a poisoned bolt with a concealed hand-crossbow and reveals that it is a traitor.)3) When in overtly hostile territory, of course, surprise and initiative tend to be much easier to adjudicate.  The PCs avoid being in initiative because it makes skill checks easier.  Both sides will tend to attack from concealment when possible, providing surprise rounds in the typical way.4) After a fight, there are two ways that initiative can end.  The first is that the players can decided to leave initiative--allowing them to take 10 on skill checks again.  (For example, only one enemy is left alive, and they want to start making intimidate checks on him, or start tracking the enemy, or the like.)The second is that the DM gets fed up with their initiative-hungry ways and says "okay, you're not in initiative any more."  A DM will probably only do this if all the enemies who are in initiative have left the area in which players can detect them, and the players haven't done anything requiring initiative in a round or two.Our combats usually finish up with a round or two of "I delay" and "I ready an action to ...", and move actions.  This is a good indicator that the action is over, and that staying in initiative has become pointless (except for abusing readied actions.)Also, if it's a situation where both sides have chosen to start having a conversation, and everybody is spending their rounds talking and delaying, it's perfectly OK to simply declare initiative over.  If someone (on either side) later takes aggressive action, rolling for initiative again simply models the fact the ability of everybody to react to the change in circumstances back to hostilities.I guess I'll note a couple of exceptions to the guidelines above, too.  In one of our sessions (one and a half, actually), we were making a lightning raid on an enemy stronghold, through a bolthole in the basement.  We knew there was going to be constant fighting, and that the duration of our minute-per-level spells would really really matter.  We needed to get in, blitz across the fortress as quickly as we could, and get out, in order to avoid being overwhelmed by enemy troops.  For this entire session-and-a-half, we stayed in initiative the whole time, because timekeeping was so important.  We loosened up some of the guidelines above (like taking 10) to streamline things--no enemies in sight, taking ten was allowed--no enemies in sight, readying an action was not allowed.)This worked quite well, but was also pretty stressful.  Because we had to do all movement (and even all conversation) in rounds, in order, it was rather difficult to coordinate.  And, well, that's as it should be.  (In fact, it might not be a bad idea, if you need to impress on players *why* being initiative all the time is troublesome, to set up a scenario like this one.  After they've spent player-hours in initiative, they'll begin to yearn for the days when they could act freely.)The other big exception really requires everybody to have a good understanding of the standard model to be workable: if everybody is interpreting initiative in the same way, *then* it's possible to reasonably start bending the rules in social situations.  For example, by allowing Bluff checks and Sleight of Hand checks to create surprise rounds when both sides are fully aware of each other.  If everybody is reasonable and understands that this kind of exception is not the normal order of battle, it can be very satisfying to use social skills in this way.There are also a couple of gotchas.  First, the DM has to be somewhat careful about ending initiative by fiat.  It can be important to give the players a round or two of uncertainty about whether the fight is over.  So, for example, when the wizard dimension doors out, don't immediately end initiative because you know he won't be coming back.  The players might want to do something like search hurriedly for clues in the room, in case he does come back, then immediately make a run for it.  (On the mirror side of this: if you're in a hurry, you can always end initiative by fiat in this way--explain it in terms of nothing happening for a minute, so initiative ends.  It's really all a matter of preference, I suppose.)And second, non-offensive spell-casting and the like always provides the potential for trouble and misunderstandings.  For example, in the wizard scenario above, what if the wizard is going to try to detect the alignment of the party?  This is the kind of thing that explains why people will delay until they find out what the enemy casts--or ready an action to counterspell (since that allows the spell to be identified, and a choice of whether to squash it.)In summary, it all boils down to these ideas (in less-long-winded form!):* Certain actions cannot be done in initiative.* Certain other actions can only be done in initiative.* Players can't choose to enter initiative at will.* Initiative should end after no combat occurs for a few rounds.* It's okay to leave initiative and then enter it again later (with a new roll.)* The DM can declare initiative over at any (reasonable) time.</blockquote>

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