Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Reading Ravenloft the setting
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Faolyn" data-source="post: 8228686" data-attributes="member: 6915329"><p>Bedrockgames: I didn't say the old female characters were bad; I said I want <em>new </em>female characters whose backgrounds didn't revolve around men in some way.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This doesn't actually make anything better, you know.</p><p></p><p>(switching the order around a bit...)</p><p></p><p></p><p>I've been reading the RL stuff since the Black Box, and have run <em>numerous </em>games in it, in several systems.</p><p></p><p>I disagree that adding love and romance make her more compelling. Now, I will admit that I'm aroace, so I'm working at a disadvantage here. <em>But</em>, adding love and romance only work to add interest <em>if there is something else to the character.</em> Romance should be <em>an </em>aspect out of several in a character, not the <em>only aspect.</em></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because a woman who is incomplete without a child is <em>so much better</em> than one who is incomplete without a man. You do realize that childless women--of which I am one--are often criticized horribly by both men <em>and</em> women for our childlessness, whether it's by choice or not.</p><p></p><p></p><p>There's a difference between "romance" and "look at this pathetic excuse for a woman who can't get a man!" and "she can't get a man; that's why she hates all men."</p><p></p><p></p><p>It makes her <em>flat</em>, especially when almost every other female Darklord is also all about the men.</p><p></p><p>Here's a quick overview of the goals of male Darklords and their motivations:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Strahd: </strong>Yearns for his lost lust-object; also, wants magical knowledge.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Azalin: </strong>Wants to learn new magic and to escape the Domains.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Ivan Dilisnya: </strong>Bored now!</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Vlad Drakov: </strong>Wants to conquer everything in order to prove he's manly enough.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Hiregaard/Malkin: </strong>Hiregaard wants to stop Malkin's evil; Malkin wants to stop Hiregaard's good.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Afred Timothy: </strong>Wants to destroy humans, unite the werewolves, and keep anyone from learning about his curse.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Urik Von Kharkov: </strong>Wants to be accepted as a human. (Note: while he takes wives, that's more part of his desire to be seen as a gentleman and a human rather than romance or lust.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Hazlik: </strong>Wants revenge on those who insulted him.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Harkon Lukas: </strong>Wants more people to control.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Easan the Mad: </strong>Mostly just insane.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Dominic d'Honaire: </strong>Wants a woman to love him. (Note: this might be one of the only male Darklords who is truly focused on <em>romance</em>.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Adam: </strong>Wants to be accepted as a human.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Frantisek Markov: </strong>Wants to continue his experiments and resume his fully-human form.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Lord Godefrey: </strong>Wants to be seen as the master of Mordent but is just a ghost.</li> </ul><p>Now here's the female darklords:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>The Three Hags: </strong>Jealous of younger, prettier women; want to kill and eat men.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Tristessa: </strong>Wants her baby.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Ivana Boritsi: </strong>Hates men, wants to destroy happy relationships.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Gabrielle Aderre: </strong>Wants a man and a baby.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Jacqueline Reneir: </strong>Wants true love; murders her sister's lovers out of jealousy.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Inza Kulchevich: </strong>Wants to be evil.</li> </ul><p>Go a little further abroad:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Tsien Chiang: </strong>Hates men.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>The Hive Queen: </strong>Wants to be evil.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Tiyet: </strong>Wants to eat hearts.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Elana Faithhold: </strong>Wants to spread law and fight (what she thinks is) evil.</li> </ul><p>The men's goals are all over the place. <em>Some </em>are motivated by love, romance, or lust. Some want power, either supernatural or political. Some want acceptance. Some want humanity. Some want knowledge.</p><p></p><p>The women's goals are "women's goals," because women are "supposed" to want a husband and children and those who don't are jealous and spiteful (the hags, Ivana) or just plain evil from birth (Inza, the woman who became the Hive Queen); I give Tristessa a pass on the <em>men </em>part because she was drow, but even she wants her baby.</p><p></p><p>The only exceptions are Tiyet (she slept her way to power, but I'll give her a pass because of period-typical sexism) and Elana, who also happens to be my favorite (although I personally would change the dragon from a complete fake to an id monster). Also Merilee Markuza, who actually isn't a Darklord and who has compelling interests--but who is permanently a prepubescent child, which is probably the only reason the writers had to go beyond their usual tropes.</p><p></p><p>That's what you're ignoring. I'm not just making "bullet point critiques" here; I'm talking about how the women are written as having nothing but stereotypical goals and desires. Where are the female Darklords who want to exert their political power, or who want to gain knowledge, or who are monstrous and want to be seen as human?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Faolyn, post: 8228686, member: 6915329"] Bedrockgames: I didn't say the old female characters were bad; I said I want [I]new [/I]female characters whose backgrounds didn't revolve around men in some way. This doesn't actually make anything better, you know. (switching the order around a bit...) I've been reading the RL stuff since the Black Box, and have run [I]numerous [/I]games in it, in several systems. I disagree that adding love and romance make her more compelling. Now, I will admit that I'm aroace, so I'm working at a disadvantage here. [I]But[/I], adding love and romance only work to add interest [I]if there is something else to the character.[/I] Romance should be [I]an [/I]aspect out of several in a character, not the [I]only aspect.[/I] Because a woman who is incomplete without a child is [I]so much better[/I] than one who is incomplete without a man. You do realize that childless women--of which I am one--are often criticized horribly by both men [I]and[/I] women for our childlessness, whether it's by choice or not. There's a difference between "romance" and "look at this pathetic excuse for a woman who can't get a man!" and "she can't get a man; that's why she hates all men." It makes her [I]flat[/I], especially when almost every other female Darklord is also all about the men. Here's a quick overview of the goals of male Darklords and their motivations: [LIST] [*][B]Strahd: [/B]Yearns for his lost lust-object; also, wants magical knowledge. [*][B]Azalin: [/B]Wants to learn new magic and to escape the Domains. [*][B]Ivan Dilisnya: [/B]Bored now! [*][B]Vlad Drakov: [/B]Wants to conquer everything in order to prove he's manly enough. [*][B]Hiregaard/Malkin: [/B]Hiregaard wants to stop Malkin's evil; Malkin wants to stop Hiregaard's good. [*][B]Afred Timothy: [/B]Wants to destroy humans, unite the werewolves, and keep anyone from learning about his curse. [*][B]Urik Von Kharkov: [/B]Wants to be accepted as a human. (Note: while he takes wives, that's more part of his desire to be seen as a gentleman and a human rather than romance or lust.) [*][B]Hazlik: [/B]Wants revenge on those who insulted him. [*][B]Harkon Lukas: [/B]Wants more people to control. [*][B]Easan the Mad: [/B]Mostly just insane. [*][B]Dominic d'Honaire: [/B]Wants a woman to love him. (Note: this might be one of the only male Darklords who is truly focused on [I]romance[/I].) [*][B]Adam: [/B]Wants to be accepted as a human. [*][B]Frantisek Markov: [/B]Wants to continue his experiments and resume his fully-human form. [*][B]Lord Godefrey: [/B]Wants to be seen as the master of Mordent but is just a ghost. [/LIST] Now here's the female darklords: [LIST] [*][B]The Three Hags: [/B]Jealous of younger, prettier women; want to kill and eat men. [*][B]Tristessa: [/B]Wants her baby. [*][B]Ivana Boritsi: [/B]Hates men, wants to destroy happy relationships. [*][B]Gabrielle Aderre: [/B]Wants a man and a baby. [*][B]Jacqueline Reneir: [/B]Wants true love; murders her sister's lovers out of jealousy. [*][B]Inza Kulchevich: [/B]Wants to be evil. [/LIST] Go a little further abroad: [LIST] [*][B]Tsien Chiang: [/B]Hates men. [*][B]The Hive Queen: [/B]Wants to be evil. [*][B]Tiyet: [/B]Wants to eat hearts. [*][B]Elana Faithhold: [/B]Wants to spread law and fight (what she thinks is) evil. [/LIST] The men's goals are all over the place. [I]Some [/I]are motivated by love, romance, or lust. Some want power, either supernatural or political. Some want acceptance. Some want humanity. Some want knowledge. The women's goals are "women's goals," because women are "supposed" to want a husband and children and those who don't are jealous and spiteful (the hags, Ivana) or just plain evil from birth (Inza, the woman who became the Hive Queen); I give Tristessa a pass on the [I]men [/I]part because she was drow, but even she wants her baby. The only exceptions are Tiyet (she slept her way to power, but I'll give her a pass because of period-typical sexism) and Elana, who also happens to be my favorite (although I personally would change the dragon from a complete fake to an id monster). Also Merilee Markuza, who actually isn't a Darklord and who has compelling interests--but who is permanently a prepubescent child, which is probably the only reason the writers had to go beyond their usual tropes. That's what you're ignoring. I'm not just making "bullet point critiques" here; I'm talking about how the women are written as having nothing but stereotypical goals and desires. Where are the female Darklords who want to exert their political power, or who want to gain knowledge, or who are monstrous and want to be seen as human? [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Reading Ravenloft the setting
Top
